Canadian Democracy, Is It Broken?

Posted on Monday, October 15 at 13:52 by Rural
What can we do to change things? The answer is damn little. We, the public, have but one chance to change things and that at election time. But how many of those that speak up will be refused as candidates by the partys involved, how many if they ran as independents would get elected, and would there be enough of them to force change? The best guess I can come up with is “no chance in hell”! Perhaps a better approach would be to push for procedural changes in parliament to limit the party power, the chance of this ever happening is about the same but never the less I am going to throw out a couple of suggestions in that regard with the current situation in Ottawa in mind. I believe that there should be NO SUCH THING as a WHIPPED VOTE, in short it should be illegal to pressure any MP to vote in any particular way. MPs who are affiliated with a particular party naturally will support in general that parties' platform and if they make a habit of voting against bills put forward by that party may well expect to have some discussions as to whether they should remain within that party. They would have to weigh that against whether the bill is in fact acceptable to themselves and those they represent. We must allow MPs to vote on the bills merits, not whether or not it fits a particular parties' agenda or philosophy. To balance the all free vote situation and to reduce the political games being played there should also be NO SUCH THING as a VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE except that which specifically says “THIS HOUSE HAS NO CONFIDENCE IN ………” so that no “accidental” or “engineered” falling of governments could take place. It should not be up to the party in power to decide whether a particular vote is or is not a vote of confidence, even in the case of the throne speech which lays out the parties' fundamental plan. If such a vote fails then it must be broken into smaller proposals, reworked or otherwise modified so as to be acceptable to the MAJORITY of MPs in a FREE vote. Never mind asking candidates (whenever that opportunity may happen) about party policy, or their view on Afghanistan, or SPP, ask them about what they are going to do to protect and enhance our parliamentary system, whether they will vote against their party and for their constituents wishes when necessary, whether they will publicly make their views known in such cases, will they work with MPs from all parties' towards consensus in both the house and committees. Do they view their job as representing us in parliament or as representing their partys views to us! For without some fundamental changes, our views, and those of our representatives, will be meaningless, there is a word that describes a regime in which the leader and a chosen few run the country with little regard to views other than their own, and that word is NOT Democracy. [Proofreader’s note: this article was edited for spelling and typos on October 16, 2007]

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  1. Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:03 am
    Yep, it`s broken. Perhaps we had more of a democracy at one time or another, but presently, it`s totally hi-jacked by the rich pigs. If we aren`t lucky enough to get another Tommy Douglas or Pierre Trudeau, then only some kind of revolution will change things. As JFK once said, " those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."

    ---
    Dave Ruston

  2. by Innes
    Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:21 am
    I agree totally with the idea of having governments only fall on a clear confidence vote.

    I also believe that no party leader should be able to prevent a riding association from nominating the candidate of their choice. I have no problem with the leader making an elected MP sit as an independent if he votes against a measure that is official party position for which he campaigned until the next election but if the riding association and the riding voters select the candidate to represent them again then that vote of confidence should be sufficient for a leader to take the MP back into the party. Party leaders have too much power.

  3. Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:42 am
    <a href="http://stage6.divx.com/Liberty/video/1148296/The-Capitalist-Conspiracy:-An-Inside-View-of-International-Banking">http://stage6.divx.com/Liberty/video/1148296/The-Capitalist-Conspiracy:-An-Inside-View-of-International-Banking</a> <br />
    <br />
    I beg of you all to study this video Take notes if necessary<br />
    <br />
    the answer to our, and the worlds delema is for all of us to see through the smoke and mirrors <br />
    Rural You presented a well thought out presentation <br />
    Makes it damned difficult to hold on to some thoughts about how you’ve seen me <br />
    Please Study the video.<br />
    <br />
    Dio <br />
    <p>---<br>"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do."<br />
    <br />
    William Blake<br />
    <br />

  4. by Rural
    Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:10 pm
    I just calls it as I sees it! See my next post in this thread.

    ---
    When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

  5. by Rural
    Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:13 pm
    In thinking about the “is it broken” question, I think we need to first find out what the real problem is so as not to try and fix the symptom rather than the cause. As a technician who has worked on numerous production line problems I tend to think about things in those terms so perhaps you may see a parallel in my thinking which goes something like this:-

    A production line (our system of government) is not operating correctly, the packing machine (House of Commons) is jamming bent and damaged goods into the boxes. The boss (PMO) says that’s ok we will just tell our customers (the public) that it’s a new type of can and you had better get used to it. Some of the employees say that the packing machine is at fault and should be rebuilt, others say that the bent and damaged goods (The Bills) are the problem and the sorter (Parliamentary Committees), removed by the boss, should be put back into use to remove damaged goods from the line before getting that far. The mechanics (opposition partys) are undecided but some says that the filler (Current Government) is the problem and should be replaced. The accountant says that would be very expensive and what guarantees would there be that this would fix the problem.
    So the question the technician has to figure out is how to get undamaged goods fitted nicely in the box. Do we replace the filler or try and repair the malfunction, put the sorter back on line and make sure it removes or corrects poor product, modify the packer to accommodate odd ball products or do all of the above?

    My choice would be to try and stop the filler from putting out damaged goods but in the meanwhile to put the sorter back on line and if necessary even put spotters (unbiased media?) on the line to check that its doing its job to minimize the crap getting to the Packer. Some fine tuning on the packer may help fit the goods in the box better but if after all this there is still bent, leaking or dented cans getting delivered then we may have no choice but replace the filler. But can we afford a new one or will we be stuck with a used one with its own problems, and will the boss let us do any of these things or just keep on jamming crap into the boxes?

    There may be those who say the whole production line is shot and its time to tear it out and start over, the building (Canada) needs refurbishing or perhaps something more fundamental is wrong with the input to the filler. But I’m in over my head on this one, what would you do? LOL.



    ---
    When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

  6. Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:40 pm
    "In thinking about the “is it broken” question, I think we need to first find out what the real problem is so as not to try and fix the symptom rather than the cause."<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    exactly!<br />
    In my estimation the cause starts with the Capitalist conspiracy<br />
    <br />
    <a href="http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=8515">http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=8515</a><p>---<br>"When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do."<br />
    <br />
    William Blake<br />
    <br />

  7. by Innes
    Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:39 am
    Some here may be interested in the following link.<br />
    <br />
    It is the report of a study commissioned by the federal government in January and reported in September with no media fanfare that I can locate. It only came to my attention yesterday.<br />
    <br />
    <a href="http://www.democraticreform.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1382">http://www.democraticreform.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1382</a><br />
    <br />
    It is interesting that a political leader who once promised he would not govern by public opinion polls or by focus groups would commission such a study which uses those very techniques.<br />
    <br />
    It is possible that the study was not publicized because the findings are so negative for political parties and the system in general.<br />
    <br />
    I have not read the entire report but two things stand out in the section on political parties. One was that the policy of an elected Senate was clearly important to the study and the government got the response it would have needed to proceed with its policy on that issue. The second issue was the public funding of policy think tanks. Could this have been an attempt to find out the public response for this idea? It would be another way for political parties to defer more of their costs to taxpayers.<br />
    <br />
    The question is: why would a party that is so flush with money would be interesting in another means of tapping the public purse?<br />
    <br />

  8. by Rural
    Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:23 pm
    Thanks for that, we discussed it here <a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070110073146873">http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070110073146873</a> when first proposed and then as you say it dissapeared from sight. I will have to read it but as we said in the beginning the "public" consultations were a bit of a farce!<p>---<br>When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

  9. by Rural
    Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:14 pm
    Here is a small extract from the conclusion .........

    “From this study this study, the clearest substantive conclusions is that Canadians:-

    Desire a quantum leap in the quantity and quality of governmental efforts at consulting the public on prospective policies and bills with far greater effort at clear communication and genuine consultation;

    Are mistrustful of federal politicians and political parties, whose promises they cannot often trust and whose communications they cannot often understand or identify with.

    Could it be that the reason we didnt hear about this is that the Government did not like what it said?


    ---
    When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

  10. by Innes
    Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:06 pm
    That was my conclusion.

    Here in Nova Scotia the issue over Bill Casey has become a major bell weather issue for federal politics and is spilling over into the provincial Progressive Conservative Party. Party members are seeing the way that the centralization of power within the office of the leader is totally undermining internal party democracy.

    Our discussion in "that other place" underlines some of the issues that are being debated internally in PC associations. I don't know whether the debate is happening within the federal party or even whether it would be allowed. I am no longer associated with the federal party.

    During the period of the merger campaign I do know there was a huge parallel campaign, led by Peter Van Loen, to prevent debate and discussion within the PC Party. At that time, I have been told, he held memberships in both the Canadian Alliance and PC Parties unknown to the vast majority of PC members. It is ironic that he is the one tasked with democratic reform when he one of those operatives who has continually worked to manipulate the system through non-democratic means.

  11. by Innes
    Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:11 am
    You might want to look at this too.<br />
    <br />
    <a href="http://www.dwatch.ca/camp/RelsMar2907.html">http://www.dwatch.ca/camp/RelsMar2907.html</a><br />

  12. by Rural
    Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:08 pm
    Hmmmm, interesting. I agree with them that the selection of participants may have been suspect but am not upset with the outcome. Perhaps that is because I agree in large part with what they say, if government is hiding it then it cant be all bad!!<br />
    For those that dont wish to download and read through the whole thing I have extracted the main bits and posted them here <a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20071020092405787">http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20071020092405787</a><p>---<br>When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp



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