Doubts Growing About Karzai Government In Afghanistan

This is what happens when you try and shove 'democracy' down the throats of another nation using brute force and excuses to invade that are based on lies. The Karzai government was created through an act of massive corruption and the deaths of thousands of Afghans, therefore no one should have expected anything other than very poor results.

Canada should get the hell out of a situation that it has no business being in. The situation is getting worse by the day, and sending in more troops will not make any difference to the final outcome.

Afghanistan? shit I thought that was Canada under the Liberals?
So to all you so called knowledgeable people, how would you bring freedom and a safe place live to Afghanistan?
The Taliban has guns, rockets, bombs, suicide bombers. So tell me how would you do it? They hate the west and anything Christian. Come on tell us?
O maybe you would just invite them to timmies? maybe a dinner? chat on MSN? No I know, you ask them to smoke a lil dope. Ye thats it. Thats why, most of you don't want us there. It's cutting in your opium.

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27 yrs in the military, 9 tours and one more almost complete..

"So to all you so called knowledgeable people, how would you bring freedom and a safe place live to Afghanistan?"

First you have to come up with very good reason to try, something which you seem to be having trouble doing. There are many messed up places on earth (Israel comes to mind for example), so why are we picking on Afghanistan? Canada has no business attacking a country that never lifted a finger against Canada and its citizens. Besides, we have to get our own house cleaned up before we have the moral authority to go off preaching the gospel to other nations.

First you have to come up with very good reason to try, something which you seem to be having trouble doing. There are many messed up places on earth (Israel comes to mind for example), so why are we picking on Afghanistan? Canada has no business attacking a country that never lifted a finger against Canada and its citizens. Besides, we have to get our own house cleaned up before we have the moral authority to go off preaching the gospel to other nations.

One big reason, a group called the taliban. Why now, well some is 911, not being nice to their own people, and not friendly to the west.
It would be greatif the world as a whole had the balls to get rid of every dictator, group of people like the Taliban, Tamil Tigers, GIA, IMU, ETA,etc. One they are terrorists and two, they wish to destory thre own people. We as a whole have to stand up for those who cannot. Maybe go out and speak to people from these places. They may shed new light on your selfserving life.
As for Israel, your a lil racist? O wait, your a raghead from BC? and maybe yes we have to get our own country in order. Likecut off welfare it was started in the 30s and should have been stopped yrs ago, the homeless can be packed up and moved to the NWT. Then we would save on health care costs for taking care of all the drugies. We could have consription, that would help also, in giving yng people work and job knowledge.
All I know, is I have done something in my life, to help people to have a lil more freedom. Stoodup for a people that could not.I have helped to show, we in the west do care.
I also have seen what the other side of the world is, without TV, Timmies, schools, hospitals. Have you?
Do you and people like you here, know what is like to drink water from the same place you shit and wash in. Or know what it is like to give?
I view statements here from people as I don't care, its them and not me atitudes. I know when I get back home I appreciate what I have more.
So fella, you don't have to care. Because maybe some day you will.
So that why we are there. It's not your ass there. So shut the F$%^up, and have another Latte.




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27 yrs in the military, 9 tours and one more almost complete..

Soldiers have to believe that they are achieving a positive impact. Unfortunately, trying to achieve objectives with a gun often result in the what is called "the law of unintended consequences." The question that really needs to be answered is whether anyone in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, or Lebanon is better off now than before the military conflicts started? How can we ignore the legitimate grievances of the Arabs and remain so self-righteous as we engage in violent acts on often innocent people? By acting as aggressors in Afghanistan we undermine our ability to bring positive change.

After talking to members of an international group that had been quietly working before the invasion to assist Afghan women abandoned by the west to Taliban rule after the collapse of the Soviet invasion, it makes me wonder just how much better off they may have been if the terrorist issue had not been dealt with by a more measured response.

Armyguy, your ignorance is staggering.

Because someone says there are problems in Israel, they are a racist? Well here's some edumacation fer ya.

1) Israel is a state, not a race.
2) Judaism is a religion, not a race.
3) "Semite" refers to a people from a region in the middle east - some of whom follow judaism, some of whom follow Islam, still others are christians. Being against Israel and for Palestinians precludes anti-semitism since Palestinains are also Semites.
4) By using the term "Raghead", you show that you are a dyed in the wool racist.

And since you posted that extremely derogatory racist comment, I'm hitting the "Report this post" link right after I post this.

P.S. Thanks for showing your true colours - we can all completely disregard your spewings as nothing but the racist tripe it really is.

"in the what is called "the law of unintended consequences."

Let me introduce you to another law.

"it makes me wonder just how much better off they may have been if the terrorist issue had not been dealt with by a more measured response."

Look at every single military conflict the West, and the US specifically has been involved in since 1960. The one factor the preceded every single one, from Cuba to Iraq was the collapse of the local government due to ethier etheir the economy or seizure or control by a dictator. Castro to Noriega to Hussien.

One does not get a more measured response to the Taliban than making them an international pariah. Instead, they allowed forces from within their country to kill innocent Canadian civillians. If we leave now, abandon the the ones that need our help, there will be unintended concequences in the future. They will be worse off than they are now, the will hate us, and that hate and poverty will bring a new generation of terrorist forth.

And we will have to go back there, and the job will be twice as hard and twice as brutal on our young soldiers. We know this, because the US left Hussien alone in 1991.

What they need right now is help. They need the security to build their economy so that they can be free of religious dictators like the Taliban. Elsewhere on Vive, there is a discussion of how a Priest shunned a memeber of his church for having an opinion in public, and we quickly shoot him down for it.

The Tailban post decrees on mosques that any Afghan helping a memeber of NATO forces will be killed. They need the freedom to be able to tell the Taliban to go pound sand, like we have with this Priest.

There is no such thing as 'measured response' when dealing with a fanatic.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

Actually, the Criminal code of Canada allows for discrimination based on country of origin, religion, and spoken language. The trick is, the 'discrimination' part.

Anti-Isreali, Anti-jew, and Anti Semetic are all possibilities, but there is no discrimination that I see.

So, only #4 is correct, and once we get the email, the moderators will be having a meeting.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"...and once we get the email, the moderators will be having a meeting."
and while you are having your meeting please note armyguy, in particular, has been allowed to post in a manner most offensive.
It is entirely possible he could have valuable insight to share with theis forum as he has been posted in Afghanistan all we see from him though are taunts, insults and at least one of the moderators protecting him as he shouts what can only be indentified as vileness.


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We have met the enemy and he is us
Pogo
A mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vessel to be filled.
Plutarch

"Look at every single military conflict the West, and the US specifically has been involved in since 1960. The one factor the preceded every single one, from Cuba to Iraq was the collapse of the local government due to ethier etheir the economy or seizure or control by a dictator. Castro to Noriega to Hussien."

You forgot Viet Nam. This seems to support rather than to oppose my point. The purpose behind each of these interventions appear to be linked to earlier interventions to promote a totalitarian form of capitalism rather than democracy. I believe you cannot have democracy or freedom without national sovereignty.

In order for your argument to make sense you must make some untested assumptions. For example, you have to assume that all insurgents in Afghanistan share the religious fundamentalism of the Taliban elite. With the growth of insurgency and the "mistakes" of the occupying forces that is a questionable assumption. The invasion may be empowering the Taliban fanatics just as the Israeli invasion of Lebanon has empowered the Hezbollah fanatics.

We cannot win this kind of a war because gradually the enemy becomes "the people" as violence breeds more violence. Military might is so imprecise that the innocent become the primary victims.

Inherent in the nature of military force is the need to characterize issues in black and white, good and bad. There is no place for any other possibility. This is why in the application of military force there has to be a clear perception that the aggressor is right. I find it impossible to see these situations in such absolute terms.

I have always held mixed feeling about the invasion of Afghanistan. It seemed to me that military force was used against a criminal act. With the strong international support following 9/11 the United States and its followers lost a prime opportunity to develop a new "police type" strategy to deal with terrorism. Instead, in my opinion the commitment of the US leadership to world dominance led them to over play their hand.

"There is no such thing as 'measured response' when dealing with a fanatic." That implies that it is acceptable to drop a bomb on a school full of children in order to kill one teacher. If you have a fanatic that has committed a crime, go after the fanatic, not the everyone else.

How do you define a "fanatic?" My dictionary defines it as: "marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion" generally to political views. Anyone listen to Jason Kenney's press conference the other day? Just because a person is a fanatic does not mean he is a criminal but if he is then he needs to be punished.

Actually, opium crops were almost wiped out by the Taliban, who rejected it for the drug connection, which the 'Islamo-fascists' hate far more than US, by the way.

Now it is skyrocketing again, and really, if I was a dirt-poor farmer facing starvation and watching my wife and kids die, I'd be jumping right into the drug trade with both feet.

And Canada does NOT have the military capability to stop the Taliban, Armyguy. I know you WISH they did, but they don't. I served too. I remember getting out of the duce-and-a-half and watching a wheel fall off it. I remember exercises where I was instructed to say 'bang!' 'bang!' because we didn't have any blank ammo. I remember losing the NATO Challenge Cup in Denmark, because we blew the shooting competition, because we were the only NATO country that didn't have a telescopic site on our rifles.

Our military has been hamstrung and under-budgeted, mainly by the Liberal government, for DECADES. To the point where the New York police department could now easily invade Canada with little trouble.

So in answer to your question, 'How do we STOP the Taliban?' We let it be. We let the natural processes within the Afghan society manage a way forward, offering guideance, offering financial support for anyone who offers a more modern and civilized alternative to the Taliban. But if they still vote for the Taliban, then so be it. We work with the Taliban.

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“The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous, the essential act of warfare is the destruction of the produce of human labour”

"You forgot Viet Nam. "

No, that is covered by the assertion 'everything since 1960'. So is Laos, Congo (thrice), Dominican Republic, Grenada, Panama, Cyprus, Iran (1980), Lybia, Honduras, Chad, Bolivia, Sierra Leone, Macedonia, Rwanda . . .

"This seems to support rather than to oppose my point."

Your point I was addressing was: "how much better off they may have been if the terrorist issue had not been dealt with by a more measured response." So, no, it doesn't. Measured response has been tried, it failed and led to invasion.

"I believe you cannot have democracy or freedom without national sovereignty."

Bingo! So, how do we give them that? We train them to defend their own defend their own national interests. We can't do that by co-respondence courses.

"The invasion may be empowering the Taliban fanatics just as the Israeli invasion of Lebanon has empowered the Hezbollah fanatics."

Here are your own assumptions: The everyone in Afghanistan supported, rather than feared, the Taliban. And all Afghans think they were 'invaded'.

"We cannot win this kind of a war because gradually the enemy becomes "the people" as violence breeds more violence. Military might is so imprecise that the innocent become the primary victims."

And another inherent assumption, which has been pointed out before - most of the coalition force is made of Afghans. So, it is 'the people' using the 'military might'.

"Inherent in the nature of military force is the need to characterize issues in black and white, good and bad. There is no place for any other possibility."

False assumption. Inherent is the need to obey lawful orders. Issues are always grey, and that is first and foremost in the mind of the Canadian soldier.

"That implies that it is acceptable to drop a bomb on a school full of children in order to kill one teacher."

That implies that a) we are dropping bombs and b) the children are seen as fanatics. Both false assumptions.

"If you have a fanatic that has committed a crime, go after the fanatic, not the everyone else."

Can't do that by co-respondence ethier. Since the Taliban refuse to wear uniforms, it's pretty tough to tell them and civillians apart.

"Just because a person is a fanatic does not mean he is a criminal but if he is then he needs to be punished."

So, a strong finger wagging then?

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

You may think I'm protecting him, but he is measured by the same yardstick as everyone else, and not by me alone.

I do not have the 'Report this post' button.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

One big reason, a group called the taliban. Why now, well some is 911, not being nice to their own people, and not friendly to the west. <<

The USA has been plying their dirty tricks to the middle east for decades. Before them, the British and the French. The Taliban is what has excreted because of the interference and now there is "shock & dismay". Maggots are a fact of life and the West seems very capable of creating the food for them. Iraq is the present day example. Some day the people of Iraq may also get their revenge and by what you consider "unorthodox" ways. Perthaps the USA would have felt better if a country with a mighty army declare war on them. Unfortunatly their enemy can't afford their weapons and must find unconventional ways to fight back. Like it or not, not every country wants to live by western standards.


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Expect little from life and get more from it.