A Nation Within A Nation

Are also surprised that the First Nations would call themselves First Nations within another Nation? Of course Europeans have tried to snuff that out already. Look at all the good things that have come from that.

Anglophones often do not realise how the French people in Canada have also been forced to assimilate. Of course if you come to the country we should accept the culture that is here already but as people that may have been conquered or made deals with there are certain deals that are made that should be respected. Sometimes more clarity can come from discussions about nationhood.

I know I will be critiqued for my thoughts on this so I look forward to be slammed.

Extracts from Garth Turners Blog, he says it so much better than I.<br />
So, one of the House of Commons pages delivered a small, green lecturn to Stephen Harper’s desk just at the end of Question Period. He put his notes on it – about twenty pages each containing one paragraph, set in big type. I watched him slick down his hair with his fingers, and waited for him to stand and make an anticipated statement.<br />
He got up, and in less than one minute he’d blurted it out. Quebecois are “a nation,” he said, standing in the centre of the Canadian House of Commons. Then he added, his government would table a motion in Parliament declaring that. Within seconds his caucus was on its feet clearing, followed by almost all of the Liberals and NDP members………………….<br />
That national referendum was historic and bitter and tough. It was the culmination of months of talking and a giant national angst. And, had it passed, Quebec today would be a distinct society, whatever that means. Instead, in less than one minute, Quebec became a nation, which we all understand. No debate. No campaign. No referendum. No vote.<br />
So why did Stephen Harper do this? The move surprised and shocked everyone, and was taken as a brilliant tactical move since the Bloc Quebecois was about to introduce the same motion itself. ………………..<br />
So the reason was not to thwart a constitutional crisis or prevent a civil war. It was not to stop Canada from being torn apart, with horrible economic consequences for all of us. It wasn’t to rescue the dollar or the stock market or our military installations or to maintain a corridor to Atlantic Canada. It was done for politics. And political power…………..<br />
Do any of us think the Bloc Quebecois and their separatist friends will give up because of this? Will they not cheer the fact Quebec is about to be declared “a nation” in the Parliament of Canada? Won’t this form the building block of sovereignty upon which Quebec nationalists feel justified in standing and asking for more powers, more autonomy, more control of their own destiny……………..<br />
How could it have happened so quickly, so effortlessly, without opposition or question? How could MPs, hearing this for the first time, be on their feet cheering within moments? Are the people we send to this place falling that much out of touch with folks in Red Deer and Nanaimo and Brockville and Wolfville……………………<br />
For a political goal in uncertain winds; for the survival of a government losing altitude; for the vanity of a prime minister testing his wings, we may just have cashed in the country. <br />
Full text at:- <a href="http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2006/11/22/quebec-nation-canada-nothing/">http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2006/11/22/quebec-nation-canada-nothing/</a><br />
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This move by Harper REALY pisses me off! The Bloc was expected to put a similar motion before the house, and that’s fine and to be expected. That is after all their mandate, and the house could then debate it. For the Prime Minister of CANADA to do so is, in my view, giving the separatists additional ammunition. If Quebec is a nation then so is every other province; Newfoundland is certainly a separate country out there in the Atlantic on their own. The Inuit have a very good claim to be so, isolated as they are. Our other native communities of which we have hundreds of small enclaves across the country are clamoring to become separate nations. So where does this end?<br />
Seems like we may as well simply forget being a Nation, forget the Federal government and let each Province declare themselves a Nation and do their own thing. Perhaps he should have said a Nation within the Nation STATE of Canada. (see below) <br />
I AM CANADIAN, I happen to live in Ontario but I emigrated to CANADA, I became a CANADIAN when I became a citizen. We either support our Nation CANADA or not, it would seem that Harper does not!<br />
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I wonder how much this has to do with it?<br />
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Conservatives Support Slips – Most in Quebec<br />
<a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20061122122817381">http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20061122122817381</a><br />
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It just depends upon how we (and the Federal Government & Bloc) interpret the word Nation.<br />
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Nation:-<br />
In common usage, terms such as nations, country, land and state often appear as near-synonyms, i.e., for a territory under a single sovereign government, or the inhabitants of such a territory, or the government itself; in other words, a or de facto state. In the English language, the terms do have precise meanings, but in daily speech and writing they are often used interchangeably, and ARE OPEN TO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS.<br />
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And…..<br />
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, USUALLY INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT; A COUNTRY.<br />
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Funk & Wagnells:- Nation a body of persons associated with a particular territory usually organized under a government and possessing a distinctive cultural and social way of life…… A State is an independent nation.<br />
<p>---<br>When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

A motion like this changes nothing. The federal government has already legalized the mechanism for separation. Quebec needs a referendum, so this doesn't 'provide ammunition' or any such thing. Tomorrow he could get up and say "New Brunswick is a separate nation within a united canada" or even "the acadians are a separate nation within a united canada". It means nothing, except raise an issue that everybody loves talking about.

There's a world of difference between "being a nation within a united Canada" and "being a people within a united Canada."

Marcarc, when you say:

"Tomorrow he could get up and say "New Brunswick is a separate nation within a united canada" or even "the acadians are a separate nation within a united canada". It means nothing, except raise an issue that everybody loves talking about."

you are being naive at best, and blatantly deceptive at worst.

The word "nation" has undertones of sovereignty built into it, and to deny such is as ludricrous a position as a grown man standing on a crate full of pop-tarts declaring that he is a goldfish.

You know it, and I know it.

So please, quit the newspeak BS and be honest, ok?

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"and the knowledge they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

"The Weapon" - Rush

And meanwhile real issues are not dealt with and Quebec still gets the blame. Harper is trying to buy the neonationalist/neocon Quebec vote prior to the spring election. Don't think it is going to work anyway. Did not work for the Libs either and it badly backfired. Harper will soon become a dead duck too. That is my crystal ball reading.

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"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

No one will slam you. Just correct you. I think Anglo's have bent over backwards letting Francophones be whoever they want to be culturally.

As far as 'Nationhood' goes, Ireland and Scotland are 'Nations' within the UK, and it really makes no difference to anyone to recognize their cultural differences. I doubt anything new will come of calling Quebec, or Acadians or Newfs or Innu, 'Nations' within Canada.

What we'll see now is if the Quebec Federalists, Nationalists and/or Seperatists will take the opportunity to 'put up or shut up', as it were.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"The word "nation" has undertones of sovereignty built into it.."

Not in Quebecois. It has undertones of 'community' in it.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"Not in Quebecois. It has undertones of 'community' in it."
Uhmmm. Not sure about this.

Napoleon hit Waterloo. Harper will hit his own Meech. How many more politicians will keep replaying the script?


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"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

And that’s the rub.

As an English speaking Canadian if asked to quickly give a synonym for Nation I would respond ‘Country’. From what I understand as a non french speaker, they (the francophone) would probably respond with ‘a people’ or ‘a community’.

I don’t think any of us deny that the Quebecois, whatever that means, are a “distinctly different society” or for that matter our native population, perhaps even the enclaves of Scots, Chinese, Acadians or Little Green men. It is what is meant EXACTLY by calling them a nation and the ramifications of doing so that bothers me.



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When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

Meech all over again. Remember how it ended: a big stalemate with "partie remise".

I have got to give balls to Harper to actually go back there. Perhaps I would give this a chance if Harper's recent undertakings were not so questionable. Can Harper be trusted? Is he a real Stateman 'cause we really need one on this matter, not somebody looking for votes on the next round? The issue is simply not going away.

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"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

And here we go again!<br />
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Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe urged parliamentarians to reject the prime minister's "partisan" tactics as they consider his amended motion declaring that Quebecers form a nation "that is currently within Canada."<br />
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"We're tabling a motion that respects all sides without subjecting the recognition of a Quebec nation to partisan conditions. Yesterday, the prime minister did exactly the opposite. He tabled a motion that recognizes a Quebec nation with a condition attached -- a partisan string attached," Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe said in the House of Commons.<br />
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<a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061122/quebec_reaction_061123/20061123?hub=TopStories">http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061122/quebec_reaction_061123/20061123?hub=TopStories</a><br />
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<p>---<br>When you are up to your ass in alligators it is difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp

Quebec is a distinct society, and I have no problems with that at all. Any fool can see that this is indeed the case.<br />
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But to those of us who speak English rather than French, "nation" has very explicit and defined meanings, and seeing as the rest of Canada speaks English, those concerns must be addressed fully, and a common definition MUST be arrived at.<br />
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<a href="http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/nation">http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/nation</a><br />
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2 of 3 definitions are in reference to nation states, only ONE addresses people.<br />
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As for being the fault of the Quebecois, I disagree. The <br />
Quebecois are not at fault here in the least.<br />
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Leaders bent on their own grandeur and legacies are to blame, and that goes for both French and Anglophone leaders.<br />
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But in ANY (assuming there are any) negotiations, bank on the separatists pursuing a completely autonomous Quebec agenda using the definition of nation as being nation state, and not people.<br />
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And IF Quebec does get what the separitists want, what makes them think for a second that they won't be targeted for economic assimilation with the US?<br />
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There is after all a migrant workers treaty on the way, if not already in practice, with the US/Mexico. For Quebec politicians to assume they will be immune to it is sheer madness.<br />
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I will submit the following: successful separation from Canada will NOT result in the preservation of the Quebecios culture, but will result in fact result in it's destruction.<br />
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<p>---<br>"and the knowledge they fear is a weapon to be used against them"<br />
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"The Weapon" - Rush

Simply, Harper opened a can of worms because he has gone fishing. Say the words but do nothing and as usual the same responce. Harper is loosing points with Quebecers and attempting to sham them into thinking that he actualy cares about them. He hasn't heeded the rest of Canada, so why would Quebec think they are special in his eyes? if Harper started to withdraw the troops from Afghanistan, he would at least show an interest in the Quebec voter. They shun him more then most Canadians on this issue.
If he looses the Quebec vote then maybe he'll try smooth talking the West. Campbell is already working on removing the embargo on off-shore drilling in BC. He says we need a majority Federal government to do that. Harper and Campbell are very much alike. Their love for the US corporate power and money. I'm sure they'll convince BC voters of all the benefits. Maybe Western Canada will also become a Nation as well, if the scam works in Quebec.

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Expect little from life and get more from it.

If Campbell tries that BS I'm going to have to go the Charlottes (aka Haida Gwai) and lend some support to some of my old buddy tree huggers.

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"and the knowledge they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

"The Weapon" - Rush