The Future Of Canadian Postal Services Goes On Trial In Washington

UPS has a leg to stand on. Purulator can be competitive with the American Companies because they have the P.O.s coffers in suport. DHL &UPS became big on their own. It's not like Canadians prefer that the American couriers take over, but rather they prefer to use them over the Canadian couriers. There are several Canadian Couriers that feel the squeeze by the competition from our Post Office.

It's not quite that simple, because DHS and UPS and Fedex are american they can essentially be 'subsidized' by the american government. You simply set up an account in the Caymans to avoid tax, set your main offices in states which have subsidized labour forces (meaning most states and provinces offer incentives and tax breaks to employ their people-usually the amount in unknown).

They also primarily count on canadian aircraft, these are heavily subsidized by our government, from the manufacture of planes down to use of airports. Most new airports are paid for by regional or municipal governments, and many offer cash incentives to fly into their airports.

This is all besides the fact that the companies are american, which means they could simply be keeping prices arbitrarily low as Canada is such a small market for them. This, of course, would change radically once Canada Post's Purolator (or just expresspost) is out of the picture.

On the other hand, I'm not positive but I"m pretty sure Purolator was bought by the feds AFTER the free trade agreement, which means they clearly intended to compete in this area-somebody should check that though. Obviously there was some kind of parcel post service prior to that.

However, that 'private' corporations 'did it on their own' is now a thing of the past. As posted elsewhere, of the 100 companies on the Fortune 100 none exist without government subsidies, and 20 were saved by bankruptcy by government.

On fedex here's a quick quote:
"South Carolina had built a well-deserved reputation as one of the most aggressive bidders in the nation. Under the eight-year administration of Carroll Campbell, and continuing when David Beasley became governor in 1995, South Carolina was working non-stop to transform its economy. A relatively underdeveloped, agricultural state, South Carolina was determined to become a quickly growing, 21 st century manufacturing center. Its main tool was incentives.

Available incentives included jobs tax credits, displaced worker jobs tax credits, job development credits, corporate headquarters credits, infrastructure credits, an absence of inventory taxes, and pre-employment recruitment and training programs, as well as the authorization to negotiate tax abatements or fees-in-lieu of property taxes at the local level. The categories of incentives were not radically different than other states, but the aggressiveness and generosity were."

Thats just one example. UPS set up several call centres in New Brunswick, a province well known for its corporate largesse.

So this is definitely a big deal, as courts govern by precedent future cases would be based on finding similarities to the Purolator case. However, like I said, the existence of Purolator could have been a blatant move by the government, I'm not sure.

Ironically, if they win that makes UPS even more of a government cash subsidy pig. Purolator has NEVER received money from the canadian government, it has always posted generous profits. I'd be interested to know how thier employee/work environments compare. I know a guy who works at UPS and he is part of an american union, which would be an ironic thing if unionism were made stronger in Canada by the presence of american companies.

This could also be part of the long standing neocon efforts and plans to privatize Canada Post. Under NAFTA rules UPS can not sue the US Mail, but they can sue here in Canada and in Mexico.

The same goes for our own and Mexican domestic corporations, but then, they're all brothers under the skin and will cooperate to see everything privatized, as the posting suggests. This UPS suit is only the beginning of the whole scheme.

When the Mulroney government closed 1200 post offices across Canada to "save" $100. million, they transferred additional traveling and time costs on the public, amounting to anywhere from $500. million to $1.5 billion. I could only make very rough calculations at the time, as I had no figures on the extra distances and numbers people had to travel, but I would say $1. billion transferred on the public would be about average. Now these costs could be double of the original figures.

All part of the neoclassical plans for the depopulation of rural areas and forcing people into the cities. This has been going on under the BC Lib Campbell government here in BC, and our school district loses about 250 students per year ever since they came into power.

Back in the '80s the Fraser Institute commissioned an American economics professor to come up with a study for the privatization of Canada Post. Of course, it was "savings" all the way, but only referring to cities.

He was interviewed on TV and asked what would happen to people depending on rural postal services? He replied: "Well, they'll just have to move to the cities, ha, ha, ha, ha!", laughing his stupid, brainwashed head off.

As far UPS is concerned, they're a most secretive outfit, without signs on their local warehouse, or phone numbers. I had very little contact with them and it wasn't anything to boast about, and when I ask business people on their experiences with the company, the answer is usually: "We don't have anything to do with them if we can help it!"

Ed Deak, Big Lake. BC.

<<When the Mulroney government closed 1200 post offices across Canada to "save" $100. million, they transferred additional traveling and time costs on the public, amounting to anywhere from $500. million to $1.5 billion.>>

What a load of bs Ed. My parents had thier local post office closed down. Now they get their mail at the grocery store in the same town of under 500 people. The two bldgs are accross the street from each other. The service is exactly the same. It was a wise move.

You're talking about a single case. How about the 1999, where people have to drive long distances to their PO, sometimes to other communties? The papers were full of complaints at the time.

Ed Deak.

Trust me, I know almost every town in southern MB (hockey days). This isn't one example. I remember the protests from towns with 4 houses. Dead towns, with no other services, wanted to keep their postal code. I don't blame them. Doesn't mean it made sense.

They still had to drive to the "big towns" to buy groceries, curl, skate, attend school, get a car repaired etc. So while there, they get their mail.Big Deal.

btw: who says these towns are supposed to exist. 100 years ago farmers transported crops to a grain elevator, built on the railway track. Transport was by horse and diffcult, so grain companies set up elevators about every 10 miles. Usually a town grew up around the elevator. There was an economic incentive for people to move to these towns, open restaurants, gas bars etc. What are we supposed to do...pay money to freeze time. Make everyone haul barley by horse wagon again. Perhaps hire actors to pretend to live in the town and run the blacksmith shop, have a fake p.o.?

And if you really want to go back to the "good old days"...Long before the "neo-cons" it was sparsely-popped buffalo country with prairie tall grasses. And before that it was an inland sea. Things change and so should Canada Post.

I kind of agree with both sides, but not really. However, this IS about Purolator and Canada Express, not specifically Canada Post, so that's a whole other issue.

However, federal jobs are hard to come by. If we had a very minimalist government and times were lean and the country was broke then it would make sense, but not even close.

There is tremendous wealth in the country, we've decided to give it to corporations, but thats another issue too. Still, even the feds have massive amounts of money and some of these are services that COULD easily be done, as they have existed for years. That one job in a rural town would have brought decent federal money into that town, and in a rural town every good paying job makes a BIG difference.

But the issue isn't confined to small towns, in larger towns they were all moved into Shoppers Drug Mart, which made MEDIUM size towns lose more jobs to low paying SDM workers who start around minimum wage. Again, that's a loss to the local economy. Instead of federal money coming to the town, now that money goes to Shoppers Drug Mart.

There's also the issue that for years people had door to door mail service. New developments in most places don't have that but there are massive numbers of canadians who get their mail brought right to their door. So clearly ONE section of canadians is getting better service than the other.

That brings up the whole rural-urban services issue which we've had before. Small towns typically provided the resources which the larger cities used, so there is a good point to Ed's reasoning that people in rural areas deserve better service than they get. If you look at the average homeowner in a rural area this becomes clear. You will have few or no health services-which means that in a medical emergency you'd simply die, which is far less likely in a city. You'd have to send your kids to a larger town for school. Most roads are now maintained municipally so you pay for the road upkeep and maintenance. You will have zero recreational or artistic facilities.

However, depending on your income, say you made the same amount as a person in a city. Well, you are getting nowhere near the quality OR quantity of services from the federal or provincial government, yet you pay the same amount into it.

And just because things change doesn`t mean it`s for the better. Some things should change, and some shouldn`t. I certainly wouldn`t trust a private company delivering my personal mail.

Who sez that post offices are redundant? Look at the excellent
discussion which has arisen here! Just like when you meet people
at the post office.

I think Canada Post has been much too timid in finding extra
revenue lines. They should have started their own courier service
instead of buying Puralator. When fax machines
first appeared and few people had them, you could send a fax via
the P.O., but I think that service died out because it was so
incredibly expensive. About $25. per page, if I remember correctly.

In Australia and New Zealand, their post offices provide a banking
service. Why couldn't Canada do that? OZ & NZ also provided all
sorts of envelopes, mailing cartons, greeting cards etc., and
eventually Canada Post did catch onto that, for extra revenue.
There's more, if they think creatively.

Meantime, what should we do, if the U.S. Courts try to kill our
postal service?

This really does worry me. It just bugs me that any decision made on something so important to Canada can be decided in DC... I think that alone tells us exactly how the outcome is going to look. If I used UPS, I'd boycot them, but I can't use them any less than not at all. I think the worst part about this whole thing is that the money UPS is after is our money... us. My money. There have been successful boycots in the past... If Canada comes to realize who UPS is really sueing, maybe, just maybe... Naw, who am I kidding, at most there's gonna be an article in Adbusters and it'll be old news the next day. Until they take our medicare, then we'll show them, we'll put two articles in Adbusters, sing a song, bang a drum, get beaten by riot police at a peacful protest and get charged 10$ USD per stitch... And Bush will brag about rescuing canada from the poor and feeding it to the rich, the rich americans of course.

---
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Everyone is missing the bigger issue - it will set a precident. Everything public in Canada will then be under assault. It is bad enough we have the free market zombies selling off profitable public institutions like BC Hydro and BC Gas, but to have unaccountable trade rules further that is alarming.

There is little to no democratic oversight to these NAFTA tribunals. We are seeing decisions made about public policy be conducted behind closed doors. That is the problem. Corporate rule is now superceding our right as Canadians to decide what we want for ourselves through the House of Commons and our elected officials. You think it is hard enough to throw out the dirty Liberals, try overturning a ruling like this if it goes through.

Welcome to the New World Order - democracy matters not.

To each their own I guess. Last time I checked people are still paying taxes (and some of the highest in the western world at that). Preventing change through gov't intervention may work, or maybe it would deny a better future.

People will one day have to choose between free trade market economy, which is a form of fascism, and democracy.

How is it that everybody's complaining about high taxes, but never about high profits, which are also a form of taxation ?

When services are privatized to "cut taxes", it is so that people will have "more money in their pockets" to pay for the vastly increased costs of the privatized services. But that's OK in the minds of most, because questioning the multimillion dollar takings of the CEOs and some of the obscene profits of the multinationals, taking money out of the country by the computer load, is considered a crime against "democracy".

But going back to the simple math of the costs of post office closings. People should try TO account their expenses the way businesses do. When a person has to drive 5 km each way to a moved PO location it costs $5. plus the time, which may take half hour, which is, even with minimum wages, costs
$4., or $9. between the two. Now, with postal services and deliveries cut, green boxes in new developments, we can say that at least a million people will have to spend this $9. every postal day, adding up to $9. million. Multiply this by 300, which works out to $2.7 billion per year taken out of the public's pocket in transferred costs. A small fraction of this sum would easily pay for quite a few post offices and mail carriers, but that would have to come out of the pockets of the same people who're now paying far more through the nose, and the good conservatives would have a heyday screaming about it.

Once and for all "Costs can not be cut only transferred on other sectors or the environment."

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Everyone is missing the bigger issue - it will set a precident. Everything public in Canada will then be under assault. <<

Good point. It is appalling that in BC, the government decided Americans can do the jobs once done by Canadians. We may just see UPS delivering our mail. I guess Americans don't hold the same sanctions as do they for their own postal system. The Postal system has never been a competition in either country. The Canadian Postal system has to find a different means to subsidize the service, however. The government should not be in competition with the private sector, in some cases.