Anger Mounts In N.B. Over U.S. Gas Plant Plans

It is quite clear that the U.S. will do whatever they wish at the present time, with little regard for the environment, and it is high time that Canadians demanded our governmnet worked for us. 30 years ago we stood up, but we had a different breed of politician.

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If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

OK, where is your equivalent outrage over the Teck Cominco smelter in Trail, BC and its decades of polluting the Columbia River? The Canadian government has stonewalled and obstructed every effort of the indigenous peoples on the US side of the border to have their grievances heard and dealt with in the legal arena. These poor people have suffered an environmental catastrophe created by an irresponsible corporation on the Canadian side of the border. How is this sort of arrogance any different?

She is really good at making these sweeping nonsense proclamations but she clams right up when someone posts a question like that.

Maybe your criticism is undeserving of a response. unless you think we SHOULD let the US do whatever they want there is no reason not to protest this. There is injustice and inequity all over the country. Doesn't mean one wrong justifies inaction on another.

This is HILARIOUS! This is really priceless, but if you're not from NB then you know nothing about it. Let me get you up to date. The issue ISN"T about federalism at all.

This all began three years ago when the Lord government changed the legislation to let NB Hydro (the provincial utility) deregulate to allow them to buy electricity from any source-meaning private sources.

Now, the outcome of that, at least partly was the gigantic Irving corporation (well, family, but profits go to their accounts in Bermuda so we might as well call them a corporation, just not a publicly held one) got into a deal with a Spanish corporation to build a liquified gas terminal near the city of Saint John.

Not only did they want to build without any environmental testing, but they went to the St.John city council and demanded a property tax break, freezing property taxes at $500,000 per year (actual estimates would amount to 10 million per year). City council were told the day of the vote-if they didn't pass the resolution, then Irving wouldn't build. They had FOUR HOURS to decide. They voted yes. Of course municipalities AREN"T ALLOWED to pass those kinds of regulations, it's against NAFTA, provincial regulations, and just about every rule of good governance (it basically means other companies pay your taxes and sets one municipality against another). SO, the province stepped in and changed those regulations making an exception for Irving and setting provincial economic policy back 4 decades.

Now,the important points. If you are looking for good information it's hard to find, partly because the Irving's own ALL of the New Brunswick papers. However, the opposition for this has been growing for years, especially now that facts have surfaced about the frequency of spills in other terminals. Anybody with a memory remembers the Irving Whale sinking and the companies refusal to clean it up, this was the event which sparked the federal government to establish it's 200 km limit, since right beside PEI was considered 'international waters'.

SO, the province certainly has no leg to stand on, it is protesting because of course as everyone from New Brunswick knows, the Irvings run the provincial government. Ironically, part of this is no doubt Lord being cheesed because the feds refuse to help pay for the refurbishment of the Point Lepreau nuclear plant, as well as the fact that Lord spent years trying to find private sources to invest in the refurbishment and found no takers.

No doubt I'll sound like a heretic, but as a New Brunswicker I'll take an american company over Irving ANYDAY. Just a final note, in New Brunswick they don't care, they just want to protect themselves, but mostly just need work. A terminal in Maine will provide 80 jobs in a rural area, but Maine has referenda at the local level and most localities voted no. The companies had to sweeten the deal considerably, not so in New Brunswick where the actual terminal will only employ at most 20 people, although most sources claim 8. That's the news behind the news, however, I may have to update my conclusions since I have not researched this specific story. However, I wonder how many voices would be making an issue had Lord found american investors in Point Lepreau, it certainly hasn't been an issue with Bruce Hydro.

'She is really good at making these sweeping nonsense proclamations but she clams right up when someone posts a question like that.' I'll take that 'she' to mean me.

I don't think you'll find me backing away from any legitimate debate, but what I would suggest is if you have news on something that Canada is doing that it shouldn't be doing, post it for all to see. Sources and arguments, are always welcome. If you have some idea that I think our government is without fault, you best read the site a little better.

I don't think anyone can possibly know everything about every incident going on in the world, or even in their own country, the purpose of a site like this is to get the truth out. So as soon as I read you information, with sources to back up the story, I will give you my comments on it.

As for the comments from NB, I think it would be great if you would share some of this info with the rest of us. We don't get much news about what is going on in the Maritimes, and that could be because the press is all tied up, as you mention. I am familiar with Irving Oil, my mother is from NB. I posted a story about the shipyards and the clean up which we ended up paying for, I still haven't figured out why? Please help us understand the issues you are facing.

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If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

As to 'why', I think that's pretty straightforward as it is true in virtually every neck of the canadian (and american) woods-namely, corporations aren't great at cleaning up their messes. For the Irving Whale, as I stated, just off PEI was legislated as 'international waters' so Irving just said that it wasn't Canada's jurisdiction. That is a huge, drawn out story and just type it into a browser and you'll find lots of stuff on it.<br />
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I posted Charles Leblanc's website before, "<a href="http://www.oldmaison.blogspot.com"">www.oldmaison.blogspot.com"</a>;. He's a bit of a nut but he's on welfare and is constantly digging up stuff that the press won't touch. The media in other parts of the country aren't much better than NB I've noticed. <br />
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Interestingly enough, for LNG terminal's most of Maine's communities had referenda on the issue as regulated by Maine law. Most voted no, however two native bands narrowly voted yes, primarily for the economic impact no doubt. As mentioned, not only is there no such thing as municipal referenda in New Brunswick (or anywhere else in Canada as far as I've seen) there was no discussion. The province is literally the armpit of the country and for most if it creates jobs then no price is too high. The only real jobs will come from construction though since LNG terminals are completely automated. They will only provide 8-20 permanent jobs. The province is protecting Irving's monopoly.<br />
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For the environment Maine is FAR better than New Brunswick, and if something gets out of skew then the province has citizen's initiatives which they can use to change legislation. So we've seen three referenda on clear cutting in Maine (all failed) which made the logging industry make many environmental concessions. One legislative difference is that herbicides are liabilities in New Brunswick which can be used to offset revenues, so taxpayers essentially fund the wrecking of their own environment. In Maine that legislation was removed two decades ago so Irving (now the largest private landowner in Maine) does not aerial spray herbicides in the state(like most provinces other than NB). <br />
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As mentioned, NB has no citizens initiatives, no local referenda, and Irving owns all the media, so most aren't even aware of what I just mentioned. As another aside, yet another senate committee on media monopoly just concluded and it's recommendations will come out in fall. All those who think there's going to be a big media shakeup raise their hands and say "ha ha"

The Above poster has it exactly, exactly right. (The irvings do whatever the hell they want in the Maritimes and not only do the governments not say boo, they subsidize their rule with tax dollars that end up in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands.)

Thanks cousin for being fair and knowledgeable. I am sure you will be banned as a Yankee collaborator any second now…

Well one answer I have for the lack of media, is right here at vive, you can post stories here and eventually main stream might get the message. Also other people living in the area, may pick up on the stories. That is the beauty of vive, committed to a united Canada. We have to discuss the issues facing Canadians everywhere.

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If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

True, the trouble is, this is a federal site and still gets a dozen stories a day, if there were provincial and municipal stuff as well it would be completely impractical. As it is, there's hardly time to focus on one issue as another quickly comes down the pike. As I've argued before, it's tough to make 'deep sovereignty' a theme when most provinces have even more troubles with their own federal government-particularly NB.

Charles' blog is kind of all over the place but he's a good friend, so I've taken a page from this site and started a "vivenewbrunswick.com" site with similar themes for the province and using a lot of Charles's stuff. I"m on vacation now, but when I get home I want to make it a 'citizen's journalism' site sort of like this one. Don't mean to steal any thunder here, I'm sure we can agree we're on the same side (and all I stole was the 'vive':)

>>Well one answer I have for the lack of media, is right here at vive,<<<

This website is a repellent propaganda machine geared to put a couple of fatheaded weasels in office. As you have seen they take a story, any story and spin it so it best serves their ends. You put it succinctly when you said: ” This is HILARIOUS! This is really priceless, but if you're not from NB then you know nothing about it.”
Knowing nothing about it has never stopped them from trying to pin the blame on those who they would like for you to believe are your enemy. New Brunswick is a fine Province, I have cousins in the St John area. (I have a place in Nova Scotia.) Thankfully, they are not the sort who want to hear a lot of BS from these self proclaimed elites with their know it all Ottawa/Toronto mentality.

>>That is the beauty of vive, committed to a united Canada.<<

The only thing they are committed to is themselves.

For somebody who thinks this, 'his website is a repellent propaganda machine geared to put a couple of fatheaded weasels in office.'

you spend an awful lot of time here. Also you probably know this but the site was started long before any regular poster here ever decided to run for office. Vive has had that effect though to gain political activists, and encourage those who are not afraid to stand up to the wolf at the door, whether the wolf is wrapped in a Canadian flag or some other country's!

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If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

It's BECAUSE New Brunswickers don't here this sort of 'BS' that they have the lowest standard of living in the country. Its because the media is owned by one family that the province is the most anti-union province in Canada-even though they need unions the most.
New Brunswick is NOT a "fine" province, unless your definition is that you've got relatives there with a decent standard of living (ie. make enough money so that they don't notice how poor everyone else is) who probably know next to nothing about the rest of the province. The province is VERY different from Nova Scotia, but you have to live there to know. The northern part of the province has an unemployment rate that varies from 13-20% and looks like a third world country. Which by standards of living it is.
This website is another matter, there is propaganda here, not dissimilar to what you'd find at the media. Here at least it is aimed at canadians well-being and addresses issues the media won't touch. There are different posters and different posts, and people are free to put whatever they want in the forums, so I don't think the administrators need validate their work.

Why I said it was 'hilarious' was because of the way the Premier came out looking like a patriot when of course he is what all politicians are-a politician. It IS still a story about sovereignty, because it IS international waters. It's just funny because the Premier is just so two faced about natural gas and you can literally see his lipstick from Irving ass kissing. The poster above is quite right about New Brunswickers though, three decades of Irving media has messed with a lot of heads. As can be guessed though, when one family does so well, and so many do so poorly, hype, even constant hype, only goes so far.

>>you spend an awful lot of time here.<<

No, I just type fast.