Alleged Russian Spy Believed To Be "Elite" Officer

"The alleged spy is being held under a Canadian security certificate"

Which means we'll never know if this man is innocent or not, therefore we have no choice but to assume is that he's being railroaded in the exact same way that Arara was for some crooked political agenda.

People are always innocent until proven guilty, and that is the stance we must all adhere to, most of all we must force the government to follow these same principles, otherwise the entire justice system becomes perverted, and we can no longer have any faith in it.

Secret trials and detentions never have a place in a free and open society.

"It also points out he was carrying $7,800 cash in five different currencies, plus three cellphones, when he was arrested one week ago."

Wow, there must be thousands of "spies" in Canada who carry multiple currency cash and multiple cell phones. Terrorists - I mean - tourists beware! This ought to be great news for Canada's tourism industry. I'll be sure to pass this alomng in as many blogs as possible to inform would be travelers to stay away from this despot country of ours.

Also, the man was NOT arrested. People who are arrested have the right to face their accussers and to defend themselves against the charges. This was not an arrest, it was a kidnapping. Those responsible should be arrested and charged for this serious crime.

"People are always innocent until proven guilty"

LOL. Yes, when charged with a crime. This guy came into the country on an illegal, faked passport, and should be given the boot ASAP. He faked even more passports while he was here!

He has no right to due process, that is part of the Geneva conventions.

"Wow, there must be thousands of "spies" in Canada who carry multiple currency cash and multiple cell phones."

Yes, it's in the "Al Queda survival manual", just go to Canada, claim to be a tourist, and they'll leave you alone to do whatever you see fit in the name of Allah.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"This guy came into the country on an illegal, faked passport, and should be given the boot ASAP. He faked even more passports while he was here!"

DC, do you have any idea what your are saying or did you forget this little detail ... the government is claiming that the man had fake passports but is refusing to demonstrate this through normal legal channels, instead it's keeping the whole thing bottled up from view. Because of the secrecy and lack of fair due process, we have to assume that the man in question is being railroaded by the government for a reason that the people of Canada would be outraged to learn about.

"Yes, it's in the "Al Queda survival manual", just go to Canada, claim to be a tourist, and they'll leave you alone to do whatever you see fit in the name of Allah."

Well what you may not realize is that many people refuse to travel to the USA because of the very same things that the Canadian government is doing. Locking people up for no reason at all and deporting them to who-knows-where is exactly what happened to Arar and other lesser knows who may be dead or still locked up somewhere. When the word gets out that Canada is a despotic nation, the tourists will stay away.

I had to laugh when I heard that the Canadian gov was trying to denounce China for doing the exact same things that Canada is doing - the Chinese must laugh at these blatantly hypocritical arguments.

reargaurd says:"I had to laugh when I heard that the Canadian gov was trying to denounce China for doing the exact same things that Canada is doing - the Chinese must laugh at these blatantly hypocritical arguments."

Everyone is laughing at Canada since Martin was PM and Harper has just exacerbated the laughing.

The reason I don't believe these kinds of arrests is because everything is kept hidden. The only picture we've seen of this guy is some photocopy of what could be a carved, shrivelling Halloween pumpkin for all we can tell. CSIS and the RCMP along with Day and Solberg seem way too close for comfort. Zacardelli should have been given the boot when he was found so wanton in the Arar case and because the Conservatives ignored his behaviour who should trust any of them? Who should trust anyone that would put people in custody without charging them and giving them due process?

I think that Bush and his dingleberry "yes" men are now trying to make the Russians the bad guys again because they have nationalized their pertroleum and are not going along with them in the UN with regards to Iran and North Korea. So, we should be hearing more and more about Russia as the bad guys again.




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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche

"DC, do you have any idea what your are saying or did you forget this little detail ... the government is claiming that the man had fake passports but is refusing to demonstrate this through normal legal channels, instead it's keeping the whole thing bottled up from view."

Strange. I got an update on his 'plight' on the 6 O'Clock news last night. Seems his trial is delayed, because he hadn't spoken with a lawyer yet. And I've never seen 'evidence' of an ongoing trial released to the public. That would, you know, . . invalidate his right to a fair hearing.

Definitely Star Chamber stuff. Funny, for such a back-room secret thing, we sure know a lot about it. *yawn*

"Well what you may not realize is that many people refuse to travel to the USA because of the very same things that the Canadian government is doing."

So, when did we deport anyone to Syria again? Non-Seqitr.

"Locking people up for no reason at all and deporting them to who-knows-where is exactly what happened to Arar and other lesser knows who may be dead or still locked up somewhere. When the word gets out that Canada is a despotic nation, the tourists will stay away."

When Canada deports people specifically to a place we know they will be tortured, then I'm behind you. But so far, we have not. Your paranoia aside, Canada has done excatally the opposite, we have NOT deported people because they faced possible torture. And people that we have deported, convicted of crimes here and elsewhere, we have let back in to commit more crimes in our country.

When do the customs inspectors and immigration department start to insure the safety of Canadians, rather than worry about the feelings of someone who may want to do us harm?

Russian Spies still have no constitutional rights, but I see we are giving him a fair trial before he is deported back to Russia, rather than putting him up against the wall. How magnanamous.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"Definitely Star Chamber stuff. Funny, for such a back-room secret thing, we sure know a lot about it. *yawn*" <br><br> Do you have any idea what a Security Certificate means? I guess not. Sure there will be a trial, just like the one Ernst Zundel had a few months ago that had him deported to Germany because he was involved with something that we're not supposed to know about for a reason that we're not supposed to know about. <br><br> "So, when did we deport anyone to Syria again? Non-Seqitr." <br><br> Get your marbles in order DC. The USG did not deport Arar to Syria, the Jordanians did, so technically even in the Arar case he was not deported to Syria. Canada may be doing the same trick, but we have no way of knowing. <br><br> "When Canada deports people specifically to a place we know they will be tortured, then I'm behind you. But so far, we have not." <br><br> How do you know what Canada is doing? Since the Security Certificate is intentionally made into a secret process, we have little choice but to assume the worse. <br><br> "When do the customs inspectors and immigration department start to insure the safety of Canadians, rather than worry about the feelings of someone who may want to do us harm?" <br><br> There's no safety for Canadains when the government is allowed to lock people up in secrecy, spy on us, and draft up secret "no lists". Despotism guarantees that there will be no safety for anyone, it's what people have been fighting against for centuries. <br><br> "Russian Spies still have no constitutional rights, but I see we are giving him a fair trial before he is deported back to Russia, rather than putting him up against the wall. How magnanamous." <br><br> Again, you appear to have no idea what a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_certificate">Security Certificate</a> is. Under the certificate process there is specifically NO possibility of a fair trial. Canada used to criticise the former Soviet Union for this kind of thing, and Canada recently criticised China for doing the same thing to a Canadian citizen who now sits in a Chinese prison - charged with no hope of a fair trial for guess what? ... terrorism!

"I think that Bush and his dingleberry "yes" men are now trying to make the Russians the bad guys again because they have nationalized their pertroleum and are not going along with them in the UN with regards to Iran and North Korea. So, we should be hearing more and more about Russia as the bad guys again."

Good point, and probably true about the oil and so forth. They also kicked out those so-called "oligarchs" who no doubt are stirring up trouble for Russia in whatever way they can.

Also the Canadain gov gets to claim that their secret process works because it mysteriously enabled them to catch a real live spy who is not an innocent Muslim - even though we have no possibility of finding out what this man represents because of the secrecy, and even though they could have simply arrested the man through the normal legal process.

"Do you have any idea what a Security Certificate means? I guess not."<p> You guessed wrong.<p> "Sure there will be a trial, just like the one Ernst Zundel had a few months ago that had him deported to Germany because he was involved with something that we're not supposed to know about for a reason that we're not supposed to know about. "<p> From your linked article: <blockquote>In Canada, a security certificate refers to a document issued under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act allowing the government to remove any <b>non-citizen who poses a security threat to Canada or Canadians.</b> The certificate is prepared for and signed by the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration when a non-citizen, either a permanent resident or foreign national located in Canada, is deemed to be inadmissible on the grounds that <u>the subject is a threat to national security or has violated human rights abroad</u>, or is involved with organized crime or other serious offences.<u> The signed certificate is then referred to a federal court judge</u> who reviews the evidence. All or part of the evidence <u>may be heard in secret</u>, in the absence of the subject of the certificate, <u>if the judge rules that airing it publicly may hurt national security or put the safety of any individual at risk.</u> There is no provision for such evidence to be revealed to the subject being detained or to his or her lawyer though the judge may provide a summary of the evidence heard.<p> <u>If the judge determines that the certificate is not reasonable, the certificate is quashed.</u> If, however, the judge decides that it is reasonable, then the certificate becomes a removal order. The Federal Court's decision cannot be appealed.<p> </blockquote><p> So, it has nothing about what <b>we</b> are supposed to know, it has to do with what his masters know about how we found out. I suppose that's the difference between you and I, I trust the Judge who knows the whole situation, to know whether this is something we need to know, or if it's better to not let his handlers know our methods. I haven't lost total faith in the system. Herr Zundel violated human rights abroad.<p> "Get your marbles in order DC."<p> I lost them years ago. If you see them, let me know where they are.<p> "Since the Security Certificate is intentionally made into a secret process, we have little choice but to assume the worse."<P> Ahhh! But the certificate is not secret! Only the process and evidence behind it. That is how we know, and we do not have to assume the worst. At least, I don't.<p> "There's no safety for Canadains when the government is allowed to lock people up in secrecy, spy on us, and draft up secret "no lists"."<p> Fallicy of false assumptions. Certificates, when issued, are not secret. Therefore there is nothing we don't know about what our government does. And certificates only apply to non-citizens (from your link). You read that part of the link, right? I always assume everyone is spying on me, therefore I keep my identity private.<p> "Under the certificate process there is specifically NO possibility of a fair trial."<p> I never said the process was fair. In fact, I applaud that non-citizens are shown the door ASAP, they have no right to 'fair' unless they follow the legitimate process. This guy is accused of being a spy in Canada, and using our good reputation to spy on others using false identification. I have no sympathy for anyone who would take advantage of our country for nefaroius purposes. The faster he gets the boot, like his counterparts Dimitriy Olshanskiy and Yelena Olshanskaya (also deported on a Security Certificate), the better. And no one is crying that Yelena be let back into Canada, now that she has re-married.<p> ". . .a Canadian citizen who now sits in a Chinese prison - charged with no hope of a fair trial for guess what? ... terrorism!"<p> http://www.huseyincelil.com/index.html<p> Guess what? Nowhere does anyone deny he commited the terrorist act for which he was convicted (in abstentia). It is a sad situation indeed, but China is playing by it's own rules. Although Mr. Celil has renounced his Chinese citizenship, China does not recognize that. I can't wait till a few Chinese agents get caught spying in Canada and held on Certificates. <p> What would be the moral implications of that? 'Hoised on your own petard' would be my reaction. And you can bet, we wouldn't torture Chinese citizens ethier.<p><p>---<br>"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden<br />

"I trust the Judge who knows the whole situation, to know whether this is something we need to know, or if it's better to not let his handlers know our methods. I haven't lost total faith in the system." <br><br> If "all or part of the evidence may be heard in secret" then we have no idea what kind of judgment calls the judge is making, and we won't ever know if the calls are made because of legitimate national security concerns or not (which is a fallacy anyway because secrecy due to "national security" is simply another excuse to hide illegal and/or corrupt government actions from the public). <br><br> Study your history. What we're really talking about is the suspension of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus">Habeas corpus</a>, and notably in Canada whenever that happened many innocent people were made to suffer. For example, do you have any knowledge of the internments during WW I and II? <br><br> "Herr Zundel violated human rights abroad." <br><br> That claim is simply not true, and in addition, we have no idea why he was arrested and eventually deported because the evidence against Zundel is hidden from view. All we are left with is the statement from the government that amounts to a "trust us we know what's best for you". <br><br> "Ahhh! But the certificate is not secret! Only the process and evidence behind it." <br><br> What, the fact that it is not a secret that people are being held in secrecy means all is fine???? <br><br> "Certificates, when issued, are not secret. Therefore there is nothing we don't know about what our government does." <br><br> The security certificate is all about being able to arrest people in secrecy and nothing else. Sure, we may know that so-and-so have been arrested through this secret process, but we'll never know for certain why - not unless you can beat it out of the "Judge". <br><br> "And certificates only apply to non-citizens" <br><br> You seem to have a VERY short memory - don't you remember Arar? Let me remind you. <br><br> This is Canada, and I live here. When people visit this country I expect them to feel safe and under the protection of the norms of law. I do NOT expect visitors to be under threat of arbitrary arrest and deportation for who-knows-what. At the same time, I expect to be protected by the norms of law, and if people who are not Canadian citizens break our laws then they should be arrested and tried for their crimes - however this is NOT what Security Certificates are about, where people are supposed to be innocent until first proven guilty. <br><br> The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention and United Nations Committee against Torture have both questioned Canada's use of the Security Certificate procedure precisely because it violates the norms of law and is therefore subject to abuse. Let me remind you of Arar. <br><br> "This guy is accused of being a spy in Canada, and using our good reputation to spy on others using false identification" <br><br> Sure he's being accused of being a "spy", but how do you know that he is guilty of violating Canadian law when all or part of the evidence against him may be withheld from view? Let me remind you of Arar. <br><br> "I can't wait till a few Chinese agents get caught spying in Canada and held on Certificates." <br><br> Sure, let's be as despotic as China, that'll learn 'em real good. Let me remind you of Arar. <br><br> "And you can bet, we wouldn't torture Chinese citizens ethier." <br><br> You bet! Just as with "torture lite" in the USA, we don't do real torture either. We'd just lock em up for infinity in solitary confinement with no heat and a naked bulb running 24/7. Let me remind you of Arar.

"Let me remind you of Arar. (ad infinitum)"

Remind me of what? That he was never held on a certificate? That he was a citizen, or that he was deported with no Judicial oversight by the Americans?

"If "all or part of the evidence may be heard in secret" then we have no idea what kind of judgment calls the judge is making. . .because secrecy due to "national security" is simply another excuse to hide illegal and/or corrupt government actions from the public)."

Or, it is actually in the interest of national security to protect our methods and sources. We're going round in circles here.

"Herr Zundel violated human rights abroad."
"That claim is simply not true, "

So, he's not undergoing trial in Germany for holocaust denial? I must have read that wrong somewhere.

". At the same time, I expect to be protected by the norms of law, and if people who are not Canadian citizens break our laws then they should be arrested and tried for their crimes - however this is NOT what Security Certificates are about, where people are supposed to be innocent until first proven guilty."

You are correct. Certificates are for the very special sort of crimes. Not for the average tourist who holds up a bank kind of thing. Everyone, including those arrested under a certificat, are innocent until proven guilty. Why else bother with a hearing?

"Sure he's being accused of being a "spy", but how do you know that he is guilty of violating Canadian law when all or part of the evidence against him may be withheld from view?"

Again, because I trust the Judge, and because I understand the nature of 'secrecy'. Why does the US keep the launch codes for it's nuclear arsenal secret? Why not just publish them so we know they exist? Round and round we go . . .

"Sure, let's be as despotic as China, that'll learn 'em real good."

So, you're saying we should give any Chinese spys in Canada a good finger wagging, and let them go about their business? I thought you said "At the same time, I expect to be protected by the norms of law, and if people who are not Canadian citizens break our laws then they should be arrested and tried for their crimes". How do you resolve this conflict? You want to be protected, but yet the processes that protect you, you want revealed so they can be circumvented?

"You bet! Just as with "torture lite" in the USA, we don't do real torture either. We'd just lock em up for infinity in solitary confinement with no heat and a naked bulb running 24/7."

Hmmm, sounds much like solitary in any other prison in Canada. Only in Canada, they don't have to contend with the shock treatment, and wonder if their organs are going to be harvested if the Wardens' cousin needs them.

"Let me remind you of Arar."

Yea, you keep repeating that, but I don't see the relevance. Stop the merry-go-round, I want to get off.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

"Remind me of what? That he was never held on a certificate? That he was a citizen, or that he was deported with no Judicial oversight by the Americans?"

What the Canadians and Americans did to Arar was based on a secret system, and guilt was assumed without any chance of a fair trial which is the trademark of the Security Certificate system.

"So, he's not undergoing trial in Germany for holocaust denial?"

Debating the historical details concerning an historical event is NOT a human rights violation by any stretch of the imagination Besides, if you ever read what Zundel actually has said, he never has denied that the Holocaust took place, in fact admitting that it did happen to some degree - but that's another issue altogether from what we're currently talking about.

What we don't know, is why Zundel was arrested and deported to Germany because the evidence used as the justification is kept as a secret. How on earth Zundel could be seen as a threat to national security is beyond my imagination, and we're left with a bad taste in our mouths that the whole affair was for political reasons alone.

"Why else bother with a hearing?"

Wait a minute, the "hearing" is bogus, with evidence held back from both the defense and from the public, therefore guilt can be decreed without any question.

"Again, because I trust the Judge"

Let's jump back to Zundel for a moment. Do you have any idea who the presiding Judge was in that case?

"So, you're saying we should give any Chinese spys in Canada a good finger wagging, and let them go about their business? I"

Anyone found to be breaking Canadian law should be held accountable under the law. The Security Certificate however is designed to get around the law, so that people can be found guilty without a fair trial. The same kind of thing happened to Arar as he traveled through the USA.

"Hmmm, sounds much like solitary in any other prison in Canada. Only in Canada, they don't have to contend with the shock treatment, and wonder if their organs are going to be harvested if the Wardens' cousin needs them."

Torture lite.

"I want to get off."

OK, we can agree to disagree and let this one rest. I really don't have much more to say anyway. You can have the last word if you like.

"The Security Certificate however is designed to get around the law, so that people can be found guilty without a fair trial. The same kind of thing happened to Arar as he traveled through the USA."

No, the Certificate is the law, with respect to non-citizens. Arar was not held on any type of certificate, and was most likely deported for torture on the whim of some egomaniac border guard or other 'spook'. He was denied his consular rights, not to mention due process. But, as a citizen of a friendly county, by mutual agreement, he has those rights. Spy's travelling on false passports do not (also by international law).

"Torture lite."

If prison were supposed to be fun, they would teach it in trade school. Solitary confinement is the only way to ensure spys and terrorists can not contact their masters. Spy's know what they are in for, should they get caught. While the whole process of Certificates may be cloak and dagger, at least Spy's don't get treated worse than we treat our own criminals.

I don't want the last word, but you ignore my one, pertinent question: How do you resolve this moral conflict? You want to be protected, but yet the processes that protects you, you want revealed so they can be circumvented?

In an open society, security through obscurity is our only weapon.

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"I think it's important to always carry enough technology to restart civilization, should it be necessary." Mark Tilden

Dr. Caleb writes:"In an open society, security through obscurity is our only weapon."

When you wrote that did you think, "Wow, I know how to think in oxymorons?"

In a truly open society there would be no need for weapons of ANY kind. We are lied to all the time about what we need any why we need it only to find out that the need was for corporate access or greed or control not for our good. That you should ask anyone to trust CSIS, the RCMP, our corporate run officials or our military commanders after the bullshit they have exhibited since the war on terror makes me think you really only start these conversations for your personal entertainment rather than to exhibit sensible, analytical reasoning.

The point is, why can't CSIS or the RCMP just make stuff up and hand that to a judge? It is not just the judge we have to trust here is it? Just as an example, how about all that "evidence" Colin Powell handed the security council on Iraq, where do you suppose that kind of stuff comes from? The really sad thing is that no one CAN be trusted any longer and we, the people need to be the spies and not let our so called leaders, authority figures, and security officers get away with anything we find wanting. This is how we will gain back control of our governments and those that we have entrusted to uphold OUR laws not some secret laws that we never had any say in.


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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche