While O’Connor was taking the poll as a sign that the Canadian people are ignorant, Brigadier General David Fraser offered the opinion that the poll had to be wrong. “Everybody was coming up to me when I'm wearing my uniform, shaking my hand, saying ‘Congratulations, we support you, we want you to go over there,’” Fraser said. It is unclear who Fraser was speaking to, exactly. Was he speaking to other members of the military or to partisan Conservatives? How many people did he speak to? It seems unlikely that Canadians would approach somebody in uniform to say they didn’t support them, in any case.
Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay offered his own spin on Canada’s new role, suggesting that a discussion in Parliament on Canada’s new role in Afghanistan would undermine the mission in Afghanistan and to question the political decision to take on a new role was tantamount to betraying members of our military currently serving in Afghanistan.
All of this political spin to justify a decision to go to war is familiar. It is very reminiscent of the cries of anti-Americanism the Bush regime and their supporters use to try to silence critics of Iraq. The Conservatives are trying to convince us that questioning Canada’s role in Afghanistan makes us un-Canadian and they appear to be using well-worn American political tactics to do it.
The stretching of truth by Conservative politicians is familiar. They have claimed that our role in Afghanistan is part of a NATO operation conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. That is not exactly true. Many of Canada’s operations in Afghanistan from the very beginning were part of the USA’s Operation Enduring Freedom, which has never been under the auspices of the United Nations and is not part of the NATO mission in Afghanistan. Our latest role, which our generals keep warning us will result in casualties and last for at least a decade, is a slow takeover of Enduring Freedom by NATO. It is not a UN peacekeeping mission. The United Nations has spoken out against the mistreatment of prisoners by the US, has not endorsed their actions.
We are in Afghanistan to aid the Americans in their war on terror, or so we are told. There has yet to be a clear definition of that war or Canada’s role in it, but our actions and our silence on some very large issues are defining our role. We have been handing prisoners over to the US. The US has been shipping them off to be held illegally in Guantanamo Bay, that much we know. What we don’t know is how many have been sent to illegal prisons in Europe, how many have been the victims of illegal renditions to countries that commit torture, and how many have been tortured by US troops in Afghanistan as part of “softening them up” for interrogation. We are not told if Canadians have been involved in these crimes or the extent of their complicity.
Unlike other allies of the United States, we do not question the Bush administration’s apparent disdain for international law. Unlike Britain, we do not demand the release of Canadian citizens held in Guantanamo Bay. Unlike Germany under its new, pro-Bush, government lead by Angela Merkel, we have not asked questions about illegal prisons in Europe. Unlike the United Nations, who the Harper government likes to say we are working under in Afghanistan, we have not come out against illegal detentions and the conditions at Guantanamo Bay. We have not spoken out against torture or illegal renditions. We have not questioned the government of the United States about their policies on torture. On these issues Stephen Harper and the few members of his party that he trusts to speak in public have been as silent as their predecessors in the Martin government.
We seem to have a bit of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy when it comes to our military, what our politicians have sent them to do, and what is acceptable behaviour. Have any Canadians, in Afghanistan or serving with exchange programs with the US military, participated in any of the “softening up” of prisoners that the rest of the civilised world considers to be torture? One would like to think that Canadian soldiers are not part of anything like that, but our soldiers have made similar mistakes in the past and we do pass prisoners to the US even though we know that the US commits torture.
Seldom discussed is that Canada’s ever-increasing commitments in Afghanistan allow US troops to go and fight in Iraq or that the US may need every warm body available to invade Iran. Instead we are told that we are on a humanitarian mission that is not peacekeeping, but war-making. We are then told that we don’t understand our mission.
Even less often are we allowed to hear discussion on exactly who we are working with in Afghanistan. We get the list of NATO countries, but we don’t get a list of CIA contractors, Blackwater mercenaries, regional warlords and other unsavoury characters; many of whom the United States would no doubt dub “illegal combatants” were they on the other side of this war.
Contrary to Gordon O’Connor’s hypothesis that Canadians need to be educated so they will support our war in Afghanistan, David Fraser’s feeling that the poll was wrong because of some unverifiable, casual conversations, and Peter Mackay’s contention that questioning the actions of politicians shows a disrespect for our troops and our country, there are more likely possibilities.
It is likely that Canadians have seen the Prime Minister’s former blind support for Iraq, noticed that our soldiers are not keeping the peace but waging war, and understood that our soldiers are being put in harm’s way for increasingly nebulous reasons. It is likely that Canadians, who have accepted casualties in peacekeeping missions, will not accept many casualties in a war-making mission when the reasons for that war are vague and the goals unclear. It is also likely that Canadians have seen our American allies torturing people on the news, heard reports of the use of banned weapons, and noticed that there are a lot of dead civilians where the US military chooses to operate. It is likely that Canadians realise that one of our main roles in Afghanistan is to free up US soldiers for the war in Iraq.
It is probable that the poll was accurate and the people who took it well-informed. It is probable that Canadians who speak out against our involvement in Afghanistan are not against the members of our military sent to represent us, and certainly not against Canada. It is probable that most Canadians are familiar with the word “quagmire” and would prefer not to see it used in reference to our foreign policy or our involvement in what is becoming yet another dirty American war. Most probable of all is that Canadians simply do not want to be a satellite state and don’t want our soldiers to be cannon fodder in a war to fulfill George Bush’s imperialist wet dreams.
Stephen Harper and his government are fond of saying that they do not govern by the polls. That is to be expected from a government that two-thirds of Canadians voted against, since it is unlikely that many polls will fall in Harper’s favour. The Conservatives should have to answer questions about their policies, however, and insinuating that Canadians who question them are ignorant, un-Canadian, and do not support those who serve in our military is not a sufficient answer.
The Conservative government should hold a full debate on our involvement in Afghanistan and they should hold a vote in the House of Commons as to the acceptability of our role there. Canadians should make note of how their Members of Parliament vote in that and keep it in mind when the next general election rolls around. That’s a poll that even Stephen Harper will have to pay attention to.
[Proofreader's note: this article was edited for spelling and typos on March 8, 2006]
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One of those, may be in fact that the poll was wrong. The 62% poll that you quote (link below) was run for CTV and the Globe. The question that was asked was "Are Canadians for or against sending troops to Afghanistan". So really your poll reflects Canadian's feelings on what they think other Canadians feel. So not quite the inditement you make it out to be. <br />
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<a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060223/oconnor_defence_plan_060223?s_name=&no_ads">http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060223/oconnor_defence_plan_060223?s_name=&no_ads</a><br />
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Now, a second poll was conducted just days later where the question by Ipsos-Reid was "Do YOU (emphasis mine) believe Canadian troops deployed to Kandahar are on a vital mission and should stay the course?" In that case 52% SUPPORTED the deployment. Further, 54% supported the use of Forces personnel for "security and combat efforts against the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan." <br />
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<a href="http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=58b008ff-e29b-465d-8bc6-030538de4cb6&k=5690">http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=58b008ff-e29b-465d-8bc6-030538de4cb6&k=5690</a><br />
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So who really says what Canadians actually think? I know that you would like us all to believe that a majority sides with your view... and I will agree that it seems that a majority THINKS that a majority supports your view. So your propoganda is working! But the latest poll actually shows that individually a majority of Canadians themselves think that we are doing the right thing. Those polls are a slippery thing. Funny how the latest poll isn't getting as much play as the first one, even though it asked a more direct question. I guess we wouldn't want the truth getting in the way of the leftist spin that our Liberal loving media likes to put on everything.
I don't take any notice of polls. They are another means of telling us what they would LIKE us to think, hoping that an individual can be swayed by the masses.
I haven't met ONE person who is happy that we are in Afghanistan. And I don't hang around people that are into politics or activists of any type. I can't even persuade them to join this site let alone read it.
You know, I'd just like a Canadian Prime Minister with a mind of his own. Not someone who is content to be led by other people. One who educates himself. The truth is easy to find if you look for it, but I guess propaganda and lies handed to you on a silver platter is easier to accept. Someone else writes your speeches, you know in advance what questions will be asked by the press. It's less work and you just get to walk around saying "Look at me, I'm PM!" and get paid for it.
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These days, if you are not confused, you are not thinking clearly. Mrs. Irene Peters
"All of this political spin to justify a decision to go to war is familiar. It is very reminiscent of the cries of anti-Americanism the Bush regime and their supporters use to try to silence critics of Iraq. The Conservatives are trying to convince us that questioning Canada’s role in Afghanistan makes us un-Canadian and they appear to be using well-worn American political tactics to do it."
Exactly what I can see happening as well. We are talking about debate, not even a vote on the issue, and they want to shut Canadians down. Notice Harper's US framed language, "I'm saying that Canadians don't cut and run at the first sign of trouble," he told reporters. "That's the nature of this country, and when we send troops into the field, I expect Canadians to support those troops."
The Rove style kicker is this tidbit, "Such a debate or such a lack of strength by any of the political parties in Canada will merely weaken the resolve of our troops and will even put our troops in even more danger." Yes question everyones patriotism like a good Bush cultist would there Mr. Harper.
Expect the same BS when it comes to further integration and missile defence. And in fact, when America goes to war on Iran, which it most certainly will, expect Harper and team to be falling all over themselves trying to get it to be a NATO mission so they can go too. They will shut down debate, they will attempt to hold no vote, and they will trot out the same lame excuses as they are over Afghanistan.
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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.
Your ipsos-reid poll was conducted for CanWest Global, a newspaper chain owned by the Asper family who are very open about their one-sided support for all things conservative, American and Israeli. The three entities who more than any other want to see war on Muslims at this time. CanWest has been caught in the past manipulating poll data, and changing the words of wire news to fit their slant on events. Clue in would you - you are not talking to a bunch of brain-washed freedominion readers here.
It doesn't matter if 99% of people support the Afghanistan mission, the issue is Canadians democratic right to debate through our mechanism for representation - the House of Commons. You slyly dodge around that issue by using cut and dried conservative methods of attacking the messenger and an attempt to bait and switch. Keep on target - it's about the Conservatives shutting down democratic debate. If so many are so clearly on their side as you assert, why no debate? Surely by your own reckoning any debate will only help Harper's government show that they are on the side of Canadians and the troops.
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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.
No actually it's dumbasses who think just like that who will put our troops in even more danger.
As for "lack of strength", the only thing that could do anything close to what is described in the quote above is a "lack of wits".
As usual, the Conservatives lead the way in that department.
As we were gathering that morning, one of the boys, who was listening to the radio, came with the news that the Germans invaded Russia. Of course, we were used to strings of German victories and the general concensus was that they will roll up the Soviets in no time. Hurray for them !
When I got home, my grandparents were sitting around in the veranda and when I told them the news and put the radio on, they went pale, were horrified and said: "Now the war will be coming here!" Of course, I knew better and didn't believe them.
A few days later, a few, allegedly Soviet, German made planes, I believe Heinkel 111s, with German markings, dropped a few bombs on some North Hungarian cities, one of them Kassa, now Kosice in Slovakia, killed a few people, on which the fascist Hungarian government of Admiral Horthy, declared war on the USSR, citing that "we can not allow our great friends and allies, the Germans, under their great leader Adolf Hitler, to fight alone to free the Soviet people from the corrupt and godless government of Stalin."
(Read William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich)
4 years and a half million dead Hungarians later, I was an 18 year old wounded veteran in German MASH hospital in Austria, a POW of the Americans. My grandparents were dead from the effects of starvation after the siege of Budapest, my mother was gangraped by Soviet soldiers. There came 45 years of brutal Soviet occupation, with long trains of cattlecars taking Hungarians to Siberian Gulags, my mother arrested and tortured 4 times to find out how what I was doing in England, and how I got there, etc. etc.
So when I hear any politician talking about "standing in solidarity with our great friends and trading partners", words can not express how I feel. How about standing for ourselves?
Of course, the Afghans and the Iraqis won't be able to attack and occupy Canada, but our "great friends" might, could and probably will, when their corrupt leaders totally destroy their and our economy and any sympathy for their nation around the world.
Michael Scott, I grew up in an ultra conservative fascist environment, have heard and can predict every word you and your brethren are using to warp people's minds into self destruction on behalf of self appointed ruling classes.
No, I'm not a leftist, or rightist, only an old guy, who has seen and heard all this propaganda crap many times before, from all sides and am getting fed up that people are still falling for it.
Bring and economics professor on this forum and watch me wipe the floor with him or her.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.
I was hoping that the reasons we were in Afghanistan were apparent especially to a clergyman. They were killers of women and killers of teachers. They killed because they hated your religion and because they hated gays. They hated Jews, Americans, homosexuals, Christians, Hindus and they hated all of their neighbours. The only redemption they had was death to to everyone who was different.
I for one am proud of Canada's military for being there when it would be much easier if we didn't get involved. Sort of like washing your hands of the mess in Pontius Pilate's time. I guess I feel that we owe the women who walked for weeks so they would get a vote for the first time in their miserable lives. Why do you take it so lightly?
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If there was ever a time for Canadians to become pushy - now is the time - for time is running out on this nation called Canada.
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<a href="http://www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/menu-en.asp">http://www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/menu-en.asp</a><br />
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I can appreciate the viewpoint expressed in the article and by other posters.<br />
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That being said, I have a few comments.<br />
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The current U.S. government aside, I think most Canadians view U.S. citizens as their friends, allies etc.<br />
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On Sept. 11, our friends were hurt. You don't stand by and watch a friend being hurt and do nothing, and we didn't.<br />
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Regardless of the numerous suspicions, conspiracy theories, etc. that have arisen these past few years, our decision to support the U.S. in Afghanistan was right based on the information available at that time, just as our reason to not become (openly) involved in Iraq was also right.<br />
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Having decided to enter Afghanistan and participate in an action that resulted in the overthrow of the then Taliban government, it seems to me that we have some responsibility to help get that nation back on its feet. If that takes ten years, so be it.<br />
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Whether we made the right decision to become involved is now irrelevant. That was then and this is now and in the now we have some responsibility to the Afghan people that we must at least try to follow through on.<br />
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Forgetting about the Bush government and U.S. for a moment, what do people think will happen in Afghanistan if Canada and other forces simply walk away and leave things to work themselves out?<br />
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As concerns the polls, I think it is reasonable to expect the public may question our involvement after casualties start to occur. However, some perspective must be maintained. Those entering military service realize they may be put in harm's way and have their lives may be put on the line in battle and/or in protecting otherwise defenseless citizens. <br />
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And while it would be preferable that no soldier ever be killed or suffer harm, the fact is that Canadian casualties in Afghanistan by the end of 2006 will probably be far fewer than Canadian workplace deaths for the year and certainly far less than those automobile accident deaths. <br />
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In all cases these deaths can be seen as tragic and something one would wish had never happened. The big difference is that while the soldier's and Canadian worker's deaths are both work related, the Canadian worker who dies after a fall from a scaffold will not get the same front page multi-day coverage as the death of one of our soldiers in Afghanistan and will not generate the same level of emotion or numerous polls asking whether Canadians should have to go to work every day.<br />
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While I never wanted to be in a position of appearing to support a RefCon government, I have to disagree with Reverend Blair's spin on O’Connor's comments.<br />
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Rather than indicating the Minister or government sees Canadians as ignorant, it's part of O'Connor's and other elected representatives' job to explain the government's position and the worthiness of that position to citizens who may or may not have all the facts. If a government believes the course they are pursuing is correct, it's their job to convince Canadians of the same. If they can't do this and refuse to change their position, they'll be out come the next election.<br />
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And to be quite frank, there seem to be many Canadians who either don't understand or have forgotten notions of responsibility, sacrifice, right, etc. Many of these may miss the subtle difference between being a nation that forwards peace but is prepared to deal with 'unpeaceful' circumstances and being a nation that is nothing more than a spineless jellyfish..<br />
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I've always had some difficulty with the 'peace keeper' moniker. 'Peace keepers' are obviously not required if everyone is peaceful, so a need for peace keepers implies there are some who given their druthers would be 'unpeaceful' and that the 'peace keepers' are required to deal with these 'bad guys'. And unfortunately, there's little chance of peace for anyone until the 'bad guys' are dealt with.<br />
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Obviously there may be a broad spectrum of opinion as to how the 'bad guys' are best dealt with.<br />
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My personal opinion is that had the 'peace keeping' mission in Somalia commenced with every warlord and their army of thugs being rounded up and shot, the mission might have seen a brighter outcome and Somalia might be in better shape today than is currently the case.<br />
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Of course, that's just my opinon, barbaric as it may be.<br />
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In terms of the rest of the civilized world being aghast re: Guantanamo, I can't help but wonder who, outside of the Swiss perhaps, would be pointing the finger. Britain (India and colonies)? France (Algeria, Indo-China and colonies)? Germany (nuff said)? Japan, Belgium, Portugal, Spain, Russia, China, Netherlands, etc., etc.? All of these have done as bad or worse than the U.S., ourselves included.<br />
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While I'd prefer a world where war and torture don't exist...along with starvation, greed, megalomania, etc., we don't have it yet. And like it or not, dealing with whoever from our perspective are the 'bad people' often entails bad things happening...regardless of whether most of us would prefer this not to be true.<br />
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And while some U.S. government decision/actions may be reprehensible and nothing most of us would want to be part of, and certainly nothing I'd defend as desirable or right, it should be remembered that all prisoners in Guantanamo and 'secret prisons' could just as easily be occupying shallow graves in Afghanistan and Iraq, and would be if some other nations had occupied the U.S. shoes.<br />
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It should also be remembered that the U.S. could just as easily have resolved matters with a few neutron bombs, in keeping with the old 'let God sort them out' view of things, and have control of all the areas many claim they seek to dominate without the nuisance of hostile, or any, occupants.<br />
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And if they chose this route, exactly what would anyone else be able to do about it? Sqawk on Vive?<br />
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I agree with the view that our participation in Afghanistan should be discussed in Parliament however, I can also appreciate MacKay's position, and wouldn't want to see any debate that arose primarily from cynical political motivations.<br />
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If I start seeing frequent stories concerning a desire of the average Afghani that Canadian troops hit the road and/or Canadian desertions or widespread belief among those serving that the mission had no defined and/or attainable goals or leadership or is simply a waste of time or lives, I'll be quite happy to see Canada disentangle itself as quickly as possible.<br />
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As concerns the perception of Canada's rather quiet acceptance of some U.S. actions, the fact is that in at least an economic sense, Canada is already a U.S. satellite state. Like it or not our government needs to tread softly on some issues...given that an unhappy U.S. could create quite a few unhappy Canadians who would be likely to direct that unhappiness at whatever government created it. <br />
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And as in our wonderful 'representational' democracy where the primary goal of most political parties is to obtain and maintain power, an unhappy majority is not something most politicians purposely create.<br />
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I really have no idea of whether we should stay the course in Afghanistan or hightail it out as quickly as possible. I do know I'm not interested in reading about another rudderless nation left to its own devices by departing U.N. led 'peace keepers' in which hundreds of thousands of citizens are subsequently murdered by marauding thugs. <br />
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We need to realize that even if we are able to create a Canada that is a truly sovereign and democratic nation, i.e., one which has full control over its economy and where citizens, rather than representatives of those citizens, make decisions, we're still going to be stuck with hard decisions concerning our place in the world and our role as good world citizens. Some of these choices may require actions that all Canadians might not agree with and which may result in the loss of Canadian lives, whether military or otherwise. <br />
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Realistically speaking, there are some Canadians who would oppose any Canadian military action under any circumstances, just as there are those who would see us involved in conflicts we have no business or reason to be in.<br />
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Decisions that involve anyone being put into harm's way are never going to be easy or pleasant, and shouldn't be.<br />
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However, until we have a better quality human than most of us are today, these decisions will continue to be necessary.<br />
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So as not to be a hypocrite, I have to admit while I have never gone out of my way to harm anyone, or at least anyone who hadn't tried to harm me first, I don't shed a lot of tears over the hapless Taliban prisoners, just as I wouldn't lose a night's sleep over Paul Bernardo being strung up by the thumbs for the rest of his sorry life. Again, barbaric however, I rather doubt either the Taliban or Bernardo gave much thought to the suffering they forced on others and, at any rate, believe that there are more than enough nice people in the world who concern themselves with worrying about these waste of skin types that my absence in the group won't be noticed.<br />
<p>---<br>"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).<br />
The Taliban have been put into government, armed, financed and feted by the USA, until they balked on the pipeline. Tons of solid evidence supporting this, easily found in books, articles and the net.
The occupation will be a failure with a lot of lives lost, because people hate any kind of occupiers, especially when they are of a different race and religion and more when they themselves are of a fanatic, fundamentalist religion. It is the same as if the Muslims would occupy the fundamentalist US states, or even Canada, wanting to bring "freedom". Who would listen and cooperate with them, apart from some "investors" ?
Yes, the Taliban are scumbugs and murderers, but they hold the countryside and for all practical purposes nothing has changed. Women are and will be slaves, tortured, circumcised and defiled and no US, Canadian, or any other occupying force will ever change this in the foreseeable future.
What is the solution? There isn't any, just as there isn't any here with some people still believing in "free trade" etc. propaganda rubbish set up to enslave them.
Crazy faiths can only be cured through mental evolution and not by hated occupiers. I was looking at a TV newscast yesterday, with Canadian officers talking to village elders, with total contempt on their faces. The minute the Canadians left, life was back to their standards, as it was under Soviet and US occupation. They can hold a few cities, but the rest is wide open.
So, what's the point? Especially when the news coming out are from "embedded" media hacks, ordered and paid to spread
politically correct propaganda.
Ed Deak.
Hey Ed, what about drug profits??? Remember that the Taliban did do some good things--they nearly eliminated the drug trade they saw as immoral, destructive....now it is back....do you think the CIA is profiting for Afghani poppies???
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"A Liberal is someone who refuses to take his own side in a fight".
-Robert Frost