U.S. May Ask For Details On Domestic Canadian Air Passengers

I think this deserves action! We need to speak out against this immediately, it is only part of the plan, and it follows right along with the LM Census. What right does a foreign power have to demand our info, what right does a company have to divulge my personal info to a foreign power? If it happened to me, I think I would be suing the airline, the government of Canada etc, for breach of personal privacy and my rights as covered by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms of Canada.

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If I stand for my country today...will my country be here to stand for me tomorrow?

See the case of John Gilmore in the U.S.<br />
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<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-10-privacy_x.htm">http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-10-privacy_x.htm</a><br />
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"I believe I have a right to travel in my own country without presenting what amounts to an internal passport," Gilmore, 49, said in an interview. "I have a right to be anonymous, (to not) be tracked by my government for no good reason."<br />
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We are not alone. The next task, when the rule is inevitably and ad hoc implemented, is someone with the wherewithal (like Gilmore, who is a wealthy ex-employee of Sun Microsystems) must refuse.<br />
<br />

I think Canadians should stay out of internal security concerns of a sovereign foreign nation, don't you? Or does that only work one way? Hypocrite? Or not? What does any of this have to do with Canada, vivelecanada.ca? You don't want American influence in Canada. That is good. Stay out of America's business, and mind your own. Stop trying to "Deeply Integrate" us.

The planes in question are entering U.S. space, however briefly. If, as the article states, the request is allowable under international law, it would seem the U.S. is within their rights to request the information, however unpalatable that may be to many U.S. and Canadian citizens.

I'm not saying the situation is desirable and shouldn't be discussed/protested. I'm just pointing out that law isn't something you can expect/demand others follow then follow yourself only when it's convenient, favours your perspective or seems right to you to do so.

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"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).

Quote = I'm just pointing out that law isn't something you can expect/demand others follow then follow yourself only when it's convenient, favours your perspective or seems right to you to do so. = Unquote

Exactly the point. Thank you for the recognizance. Have a good one, Calumny. Off to open minds and influence enemies elsewhere. Still have to stop by on occasion to see how "the other side" is doing. Hope things are well with you and jesse, and I wish the two of you the best of luck in the future.

the usa would be well within its rights in international law to do this.

solution for canadian airlines: discontinue taking the shortcuts over USA airspace.

There are no breaches of Charter rights here. One, the Charter only applies to acts of government. the airlines are providing the passenger lists to the USA, not the Canadian government.

two, privacy rights are not protected by the charter either explicitly or implicitly

however, the airlines are subject to PIPEDA, so that may prevent them from handing over the info.

Wow, what an snippy and intolerant counter-argument, glad you aren't the
guy in charge of this. What does this have to do with Canada? For one thing,
what legal recourse do Canadian citizens have if this information is abused or
misused? So it is indeed our business, because we might need to change our
domestic flight regulations to accommodate, and at least ensure our
passengers are given the opportunity for informed consent. When citizens
intending to carry out purely domestic business are required to provide
information to foreign intelligence agencies, or accept personal cost or
inconvenience, you're damn right it's our business. Maybe not to lean on the
U.S. government, but definitely the domestic airlines who will no doubt be
quite cavalier and dismissive about what people are being asked to do.

So you're right, nothing in technical fact has to do with Canada, this is a deal
between domestic airlines who are permitted to enter the foreign airspace for
the sake of convenience, and the foreign government who permits it.

Next, however, the U.S. government will likely request passenger details on
any domestic flight physically capable of diverting into U.S. airspace, even if it
does not pass through it. How about allowing undercover U.S. marshalls on
Canadian domestic flights that venture in or near U.S. arispace? Fighter jet
escorts? What if a passenger on a domestic flight passing near (perhaps not
in) U.S. airspace is on the infamous no-fly list? Can the U.S. government go
direct to the domestic airline to ground the plane, or do they have to notify
the Canadian government first? Is the Canadian government entitled to
access to the information gathered, or is this to be kept under the "national
security" shroud?

The unfortunate solution is for the U.S. to restrict access to their airspace
according to these rules, and we'll all just have to fly around the edges of the
police-state if we don't like it.

Or, you could play nice with the rest of world for a change, respect the
concerns of citizens of other nations who are trying to govern themselves,
and work toward a more cooperative solution, which I'm sure we'd be happy
to provide.

Canadian:
"The unfortunate solution is for the U.S. to restrict access to their airspace
according to these rules, and we'll all just have to fly around the edges of the
police-state if we don't like it."

American:
Please. DO that. It's not your state, it's ours "police", or otherwise. Your special Canadian priveleges have seen their last days. Get used to it. You have yourselves to thank. So go "thank yourselves", please. Deep Integration is being halted slowly but surely as is the common goal here at vivelecanada.ca, correct?

Canadian:
"Or, you could play nice with the rest of world for a change, respect the
concerns of citizens of other nations who are trying to govern themselves,
and work toward a more cooperative solution, which I'm sure we'd be happy
to provide."

American:
You specifically mean Canada, not "the rest of the world". This has nothing to do with a Canadian "governing" one's self. Contrary to your Canadian value system you govern Canada, not the United States of America. Get used to this concept as you will not be humored forever as you have been in the past. "...work toward a more cooperative solution, which I'm sure we'd be happy
to provide."" But, what about "deep integration"? Contradiction after repeated contradiction. Just leave America and it's people alone. Stay out of our business. You have your own airspace. Fly around if the laws you must follow while in a foreign, sovereign nation bother you. You are free to do as you wish. It's our country. Not yours.

You most likely will continue to see Canadian's "special rights/priveleges" historically afforded them within America's borders/airspace become more and more diminished with time. This what you have wished for. A stop to deep integration of our respective societies. This is a good thing for both of us. Don't be alarmed. Now you are getting your wish.

Deep Integration is being slowed, and will perhaps, with time, and luck, and the efforts of good, well-intentioned people myself, and vivelecanada.ca working together for common goals of equal rights and equal respect for all, ultimately be stopped altogether. Both of our Deep Integration problems. Solved. Soon to be no longer we all hope. The future is bright for both of our countries. I believe Canadians have it in them to respect our differences and recognize one another's sovereignty. I have complete faith and confidence in the good majority of Canadians ability to recognize America's sovereignty. Most Canadians are intelligent enough to see that. I like Canadians who respect my country and my people's rights. We can build on that concept, I believe.

The best way to get around this paranoia is to stop flying. The last time I flew was in 1969 and haven't missed anything since. There's too much flying going on, too much pollution, too much wasted fuel for no logical reasons. 90% of the airliners could and should be junked tomorrow, as they serve no real purpose. This whole flying hysteria started about 40 years ago and the world is paying a very high price in ecological destruction causing depletion, stress, plages, illness and crime, so that people can be somewhere else for no real reasons. The so called "tourism industry" is little more than minimum wage slave labour, hardly worth any promotion. It may jack up the phoney GDP figures, but brings no real benefit to real people.
In any case, what is the logic behind this demand if the planes only cross the airspace, without landing ? Are those paranoid maniacs afraid that somebody may drop a bomb from and airliner ? The long and short of it is that, like their old time communist secret police counterparts, they became fanatic information gatherers, keeping tabs and records on everybody on what they do, buy, eat, and think ? Every time we use a credit card, make a phone call, or send an email, it goes in our personal files. So much for "freedom and democracy". Ed Deak, Big Lake, BC.

"The long and short of it is that, like their old time communist secret police counterparts, they became fanatic information gatherers, keeping tabs and records on everybody on what they do, buy, eat, and think ? Every time we use a credit card, make a phone call, or send an email, it goes in our personal files. So much for "freedom and democracy". Ed Deak, Big Lake, BC."

Wow. Sorry about that Ed. They do that to you guys in B.C., eh. That's too bad. I hope my government never does such as that. That's frightening stuff there. Good luck in your fight against oppression there in Canada, Ed. We're all pulling for you bud. Hang in there.

I kind of have to agree with you on the flying thing too. Not really necessary is it? Cheers.

<blockquote> I think Canadians should stay out of internal security concerns of a sovereign foreign nation, don't you? Or does that only work one way? Hypocrite? Or not? What does any of this have to do with Canada, vivelecanada.ca? You don't want American influence in Canada. That is good. Stay out of America's business, and mind your own. Stop trying to "Deeply Integrate" us. </blockquote> How is this possibly NOT Canadian business? It would be CANADIAN personal information that is being surrendered, and CANADIAN airlines that are being 'asked' to provide it. What bearing does my birthday have on US security when I am 30,000 feet above US soil on my way to Toronto from Winnipeg? This is Homeland Security fishing for information and nothing more. <p>---<br>Every time you complain about the moderators, god kills a kitten.

I just sent this email to Air Canada:<br />
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Hello,<br />
<br />
I recently came across the following article regarding flights over US airspace and possible new requirements suggested by the US:<br />
<a href="http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/30/flights050530.html">http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/30/flights050530.html</a><br />
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If such measures were put in place, I would no longer take flights that travelled over US airspace, as I feel this would be a blatant violation of my right to privacy. I implore you to fight such 'security' measures, as there is no possible reason that the US would need such information. If Air Canada does not provide flights that do not pass over US soil, I will use another airline.<br />
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I am aware that these 'security' measures are not yet in place, and I hope that you will resist violating the privacy of your customer information.<br />
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Thank you for your time.<br />
Jesse<br />
Edmonton, AB<br />
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I urge everyone else to send similar comments to the airlines! If they hear it enough, they might do something to preserve our privacy. <p>---<br>Every time you complain about the moderators, god kills a kitten.