China's Oil Sands Role Tests U.S

It's always interesting that whenever the Americans talk about energy security they always refer to North American energy security when in reality they mean American energy security; or could this be another case of Americans really thinking the oil is actually theirs (how did their oil get under our snow?).

The 174 billion barrels of oil in the oil sands is grossly overstated, as the bulk of this number (over 100 billion barrels) is located so deep that they cannot dig it out with open pit mines and can only be brought to the surface with massive amounts of natural gas and water to inject steam to literally liquify it enough so it can be pumped out. If the true cost of this was borne by the people who are making all the money from it I seriously doubt it would be economically viable.

As far as China goes, what difference does it make what kind of capacity they have to refine heavy oil since no one in Alberta is going to stand shipping off anything other than a finished product to China, except maybe the politicians if their corporate friends will benefit from doing so.

Well, that`s just it, all along! The corporate pigs and their paid off politicians only stand to gain, while Canada doesn`t benefit. Hell, even Alberta doesn`t benefit! When a supposed debt free Alberta closes rural hospitals, one can clearly see the treason in action. I say to Albertans, and Newfoundlanders, as well as Canadians- WAKE THE HELL UP! We`re going to have nothing in a few short years if people continue to know their sports teams and soap operas better than the politics! And the time is long overdue for people to get vigorously active! Tommy Douglas was voted the greatest Canadian, yet politicians and the media, including Jack Layton and other NDPers, don`t even want to touch the NAFTA-chapter 11- Energy Clause issue! Look at Ukraine. People in the streets, NOT MOVING until democracy is proven to them!!! Are we going to just sit here and continue to say, "Oh, well, I can still buy a case of beer?" Are we going to wait until it`s too late? Let`s shut it all down, people!

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Dave Ruston

But that's the thing Dave. Are we being lied to? A poll by an OIL COMPANY showed 80% of Alberta supported the NEP. Is it possible that people were manipulated into thinking dissent was popular?

Do the people of Alberta and Newfoundland really believe that their corporate tax-cutting governments will give them more benefits from those oil revenues? The companies are foreign-owned, royalties are minimal.

I think people are quite naive and dumb sometimes. Some Albertans told the rest of Canada that it was "their oil," yet their population doesn't need it--their total population is less than Toronto's!

I think the ignorance of many people is just mind-boggling....we have this "resources colony" mentality. Nobody questions whether oil-plundering and clear-cutting really creates that much prosperity. Nobody talks about how when we clearcut land, we're ruining a sustainable industry, and when we send lumber south, we're exporting jobs to the US. It's not popular to think that, but it's true.

You can clear-cut a huge forest in a week with 2 people and a machine. Clearcutting creates almost NO jobs, and they end very quickly.

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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter --

Winston Churchill

Actually, I think a lot of people question a lot of what's going on. However, there's not much they can do about it...in the current system.

And speaking of direct democracy, let me say this....

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"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).
http://directdemocracycanada.ca

Agreed, but I do think Canadians don't take enough risks....I remember a veneer plant in Ontario I knew about closing, and it never ocurred to anyone there to build furniture. Not at all. I remember a town in Alberta fighting for their right to plunder the neighbouring countryside to strip-mine coal, instead of doing something long-term, like manufacuring. No vision whatsoever, but I guess I'm too demanding....the people with capital are to blame, but so are others IMO.

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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter --

Winston Churchill

Speaking of vision, China's burgeoning demand for energy puts it in the ideal position to go with alternate and environmentally benign sources. But it is going after oil, which is beginning to amount to a direct confrontation with the USA, which MUST import oil as well. I think this is a deliberate move on China's part, to "test" US resolve to be world's only "superpower".

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RickW

<p> <b>Perturbed</b>, forgive me but I'm going to be very blunt here! I think it is the arrogance of people <b>"like us"</b> who <b>"are in the know"</b> that IS mind-boggling!!!! <p> It's easy to sit in front of our computer and rant away at "regular people", at "them" and their "ignorance". We feign to ignore that most people are so busy working for a living, most of them in order to afford just barely enough to feed and raise a family, so busy working for a barely decent life. So they sit in front of their TV after a hard day's work and get fed corporate-designed mush to relieve the tension. Who are we to blame them? What have we to offer that is better than that <i>(read: low energy input required)</i>? That is the question, n'est-ce pas? <p> I believe it is up to us to come up with creative ideas to reach out to people "in their daily life". Ranting is easy! WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? How come we are asking of "them" what we ourselves are not prepared to do? <b>ACT!</b> <p> This year, one of my resolutions is to try and do just that: to come up with out-of-the-box ideas on how to reach out to the community other than having "group meetings" (on blogs or in a room somewhere) of like-minded "nerds" like us which has its purpose, sure, but is definitely not enough nor adequate for the challenges we face. We could share information and ideas on that right here at <b><i>VIVE</i></b>. </p>

Yes, "...most people are so busy working for a living, most of them in order to afford just barely enough to feed and raise a family, so busy working for a barely decent life..."

And the point of this is that the existing system is designed to divert the ordinary Canadian's attention, away from active participation. Our leaders (both political and business) do not want "interference" from the plebs, and the laws and customs are structured to ensure this. It's the "bread & circuses" that served the Romans so well, and things haven't changed much from then.

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RickW

Great point, I know we're nerds. This being said, I think it is about one things--power. Somebody or some group must find a way to get political power, to challenge the status quo....radical reformers and progressive conservatives have had no luck for decades, due to elitist consensus and lack of participation by average people.


If we had the answer as to how to accomplish our goals--if we can even agree on goals, then other then waiting 200 years, and hoping for the best like some social democratic types--I think we don't know what to do yetm maybe we'll never know....I guess there wouldn't be a need for this site if we knew what to do, nor do I think that discussing such things on a fully public site is necessarily helpful either. If you had a great idea--you'd have to be willing to make it accessible to the entire world here, as this site is surely monitored by authorities in Canada and the U.S. at least by now.

I'd do it behind the scenes as the elites do, unless it's a populist movement, like an Orchard campaign. I realize this is beyond the abilities and of most people. This being said, unless you planned to get involved in politics and play the system, then I'm not sure there is anything else to do. There really is no other way. Revolutions are bloody and accomplish little usually. Innoncent people die. A new elite forms. I think participating is the only way........

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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter --

Winston Churchill

Gee, isn't this sort of what we're trying to get going with a DD movement. Why is it no one seems to want to get on board?

Oh, I forgot, everyone except those with the time (lack of lives, whatever) to ramble on endlessly in various web political forums is too 'uniformed' to be trusted with any sort of decision making ability in their nation. They just get to pay for it throughout their lives.

You want to do something beyond yapping? Check out the direct denmocracy municipal candidate forum thread.

At least Sue, CWC, Marcarc (and Dr. Caleb in a different way) have had the guts to put somnething real on the line to back up their beliefs. Don't see a lot of other Vive 'regulars', including myself, doing the same to date.

Talk, and web site postings, are cheap.

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"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).
http://directdemocracycanada.ca

The reason I haven't gotten involved, Calumny, is I currently do not support it.





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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter --

Winston Churchill

If the most important thing we have to do is save Canada first from the US then perhaps China and ultimately ourselves then I'm afraid we are going to have to play within the system. The system isn't perfect but it's the one we have and crying about it will get us no where. The only people/party/organizations that are touching on this issue are the NDP, David Orchard, Paul Hellyer, Mel Hurtig, Council of Canadians, Canadian Action Party, Canadian Democratic Movement, Canadian Dimension, The Tyee, David Stromboulopolous, Shirley Douglas, and I'm sure there are more. The largest body that can be built on to promote this MOST important cause is the NDP. I suggest everyone start writing letters urging them to unite now. If they are truly sincere in what they are saying they will have to put aside other differences to come together for this cause. Write letters and send them to every local newspaper and the major ones, spend ten dollars and take out a membership for the NDP, and get your family to take out a membership, start attending their meetings, go to town hall meetings called by your MLA or MP. Volunteer to go door to door handing out pamphlets to get your NDP candidate elected. Volunteer to make phone calls to get out the vote. The NDP is a grassroots party that does not accept corporate donations, gets minimal donations from unions and small donations mainly from individuals who don't as a rule have much to spare. People who run for the NDP know they will be swimming upstream without much help from the media or the people they are trying to make things better for. Everyone is all about me and not the whole. Within this system it's the best chance we have. I suggest we put our money and our efforts where our mouths are. There is a rumour in Ottawa that an election could be in the wings as early as February. Paul Martin does not like his minority status and will take the first chance he gets when his polls look good to bring the government down. If you are serious you will pull out all the stops and join the NDP and help them keep the seats they have and possibly win more. I have been more than a little proud of what I have seen in the house when they present their stuff. I just wish other social democrats would stop beating up on other social democrats. More support is all they need to push even harder.

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gina

<p> Thanks <b>Gina</b>. I get your point. However, I would like to obtain the NDP’s reaction (or yours) to this piece of information from a <a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20041217152027522">recent interview of David Orchard</a>. Is the NDP truly "grassroots"? Let's face it: Corporate and powerful lobby influence over our government will not be eradicated overnight. How does the NDP plan to overcome that hurddle when and if it finds itself in a position to do so? <p> <blockquote><i><b> You are to the left of most “left” politicians. For example you are much more openly against the Iraq war than Jack Layton of the social democratic New Democratic Party (NDP), who refused to mention Iraq during the recent Bush visit to Ottawa. How can you call yourself a conservative? <p> This business of left and right is not so clear-cut. It depends on what issues you are talking about. I appreciate the NDP taking a strong position today against missile defence, but in the 1980s, when Brian Mulroney was preparing to implement the FTA, I went to Ottawa and knocked on the doors of the NDP. Nothing moved. I couldn’t understand why the “party of the Left” wouldn’t come out publicly against the FTA. Then a senior advisor to the NDP told me why. One of the NDP’s main donors at that time was the United Steelworkers of America (USWA), which is a union of both Canadian and American workers, dominated by the Americans, and USWA wanted to avoid what it called the “Bob White syndrome.” Bob White was the union leader who broke off the Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) from the United Auto Workers of America (UAW), arguing the need for a national, Canadian union. The Steelworkers didn’t want the same thing to happen to their union. These large American controlled unions were not against the Canada-U.S. FTA in the 1980s. They changed their tune when NAFTA was being negotiated in the 1990s, and the NDP followed suit. So in the end the 1988 FTA fight for Canadian sovereignty was led by someone who rarely gets the credit he deserves, a corporate Bay St. lawyer, the Leader of the Liberal Party, John Turner — not the NDP. So, left-right labels are not that helpful. I take a practical, rather than an ideological, approach to issues.</b></i></blockquote> <p> On another point brought up by <b>Calumny</b>, regarding <b>Direct Democracy</b>, like <b>Perturbed</b>, I am not convinced. At this point in time, DD for me is California’s Governor Davies given the boot by the Far-Right & big money to be replaced by <b>Arnold</b>! It’s all those <b>anti-gay initiatives</b> that some think contributed to Bush being reelected (in addition to vote rigging, of course!). As for Switzerland, forget it! There, too, it would seem that DD has been hijacked by Bankers & other corporations. On paper, it does appear to be a very good idea. Still, <a href="http://forums.alternet.org/guest/motet?show+-ujst3x+-ilad+Issues+400+-25-">at this forum</a>, there was a very interesting exchange on “<b>Apathy: Greatest Threat to Democracy?</b>” I have picked a few thoughts that are somewhat critical of DD. It's important to note that they come from "le vécu", not ideology. <p> <blockquote><i><b>I don't know of any evidence that there's significant interest in having a say on all the issues. Where I live, we vote for judges. Only something like 30 percent of VOTERS bother to punch the cards in that section. <p> California has direct democracy re a tiny percentage of laws and regulations with its referendum system. It's out of control and hijacked by big money even at this level. What would happen if every law and proposal was added to those ballots? <b>Direct democracy is a great ideal, but not in this century in this country. In some mythical tiny village, sure. But unless there's a major nuclear holocaust or plague that cuts the population by 90 percent, not here and not now.</b> <p> And frankly, who has the time to vote on every little piece of minutae that comes up.. Half of American's cant even be arsed getting up and voting every 4 years fer christs sake! </b></i></blockquote> <p> So for now I am more sort of leaning towards <b>Gina</b>! <p>

So maybe we DO need runoff elections AND compulsory voting, because that in reality is the greatest extent to which the average person will get involved, and these simply should NOT be options.

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RickW