John Ralston Saul. Watching Canada's “Grand Experiment”

Posted on Thursday, June 18 at 10:14 by Robin Mathews

John Ralston Saul.  Watching Canada’s “Grand Experiment”
Fail

John Ralston Saul feels (completely admirably) near-despair at the present crumbling of the great and unique Canadian vision of an ever-opening and inclusive egalitarianism.  Articulate, alive, travelled, experienced, he feels concern that made him write FAIR COUNTRY (2008).  It addresses the  present crumbling that incarnates his own near-despair. 

FAIR COUNTRY is really two books.  In the one Saul writes history, flawed but fascinating, about what he sees as the Aboriginal roots of much that is best in Canadian civilization.

His argument goes back to the long beginning when the arriving Europeans lived with and learned from the Aboriginal idea of discussion and negotiation in a circle of social and philosophical inclusion.  Saul quotes enough from great Indian and Inuit speakers to make his point about their rich understanding.

He reminds his readers of the long period of real military alliance when respect for and close observation of Indian strategy also shaped the thought and skill of their non-Indian peers.  So much of “Canadian” thinking and acting is drawn from the long association, Saul believes, we are blind to it, responding, often, in Aboriginal-taught ways without consciousness of doing so.

From that core beginning, Saul moves from hope and celebration to near-despair.  He describes the persistent destruction of the Canadian vision in the hands of the elites who are self-willed colonials of U.S. Empire.  In that section especially he is – as the sub-title of his book says – “Telling Truths About Canada”.

Coincidentally, Mel Hurtig has published a book almost at the same time and similarly entitled it:  THE TRUTH ABOUT CANADA.  Both men seem to be suggesting that the normal, authoritative sources are not telling the truth about Canada: press, media, governments, opposition parties, police, the courts.  And both men are correct.

Hurtig meticulously uses – quite largely – the research and reporting of the European-centred Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to reveal how Canada persistently has retreated from ideals of egalitarianism and the well-being of the Canadian people.

The two books touch many of the same deep ills in quite different ways.  They might well be read together.  They are both important to an understanding of the huge struggle Canadians must involve themselves in to gain back the fairness and hope of our “Canadian civilization” (as Saul names it).

Saul’s book has designs on the reader.  It wants the reader to come away knowing specific things.  And so Saul structures the book in ways that I believe are untrue to history.

In the first place, in relation to the U.S.A. – he admits that colonials develop a fawning denial of their own place and a sick reverence for the imperial power.  But he will not touch the fact that colonials are coerced, bribed, suborned, cajoled, and trapped into their colonial position and their colonial-mindedness – as well as, sometimes, willing it themselves. 

Throughout his book, in fact, Saul protects the U.S.A.  He appears to be manoeuvring to make sure he can’t be called anti-American.  And so he has the Canadian elite obsessively colonial-minded, but the U.S. has nothing to do (as he presents the matter) with that condition.

Even dealing with Euro-Canadian history, he leaves out the U.S. involvement.  He cites the key document of 1763 – The Royal Proclamation, which insists the sale of Native lands follow due and public process (and is still legally functioning in Canada).  He cites, too, The Quebec Act of 1774 which strengthened francophone legitimacy and area of power – and set limits to the takeover of Indian land.

He fails to mention that those two acts had much to do with the 1776 U.S. War for Independence.  The U.S. rejected The Royal Proclamation and by the nineteenth century, having grabbed all Indian land, declared the acquisition a product of war.  That means U.S. Indians have no indigenous rights.  In addition, the U.S. overrode the Quebec Act and drove violently to the Pacific.

Both of those facts are key to understanding the Euro-Canadian and Indian alliance as well as how and why Euro-Canadians learned the Aboriginal circle of inclusion. It tells, also, much about why early Canadians clung to the British connection.

Saul ignores that aspect.  By the same token, U.S. “Manifest Destiny” (that it should own Canada), and its incessant incursions upon Canadian sovereignty forced the real (though often strained) Canada/Britain alliance and made the connection extremely important to Canadian survival.  Saul never grants that fact, identifying an important flaw in his thought throughout the book. 

His treatment (or lack of it) of the Canadian participation in Afghanistan, for  instance, is alarming.  George Bush tried to drag Canada into committing troops to the Iraq War.  Chretien refused with his famous “proof is proof” statement.  But (to lower Imperial pressure?) he agreed to commit Canadian troops to Afghanistan. He committed Canadian troops to an openly Imperial  adventure.  A Canadian reason for being in Afghanistan – except as colonials taking Imperial orders – is very hard to find.

Saul says nothing to that effect.  In fact, he says warm things about the good officers in Afghanistan. (Hillbilly Rick Hillier, the killer general souped-up with U.S. training?)

Nothing can explain Saul’s silence, anymore than anything can explain a woman-of-conscience, Adrienne Clarkson, Governor General, travelling to Halifax to wish farewell to the first Canadian soldiers posted to Kandahar Province.  Except as a member of the elite which Saul so savagely excoriates, Governor General Clarkson had no business wishing Canadians soldiers away to fight a plainly U.S. Imperial war as lackeys of the U.S.A.

Incidentally, there is – in the Governor General’s position - support for Saul’s claim that Euro-Canadians deny the Aboriginal people their place in Canada.  So far, we have had an oriental Governor General and a Black one – but not an Aboriginal one.

Saul’s bias is reflected in his failure to know, fairly, the role of the Imperial Unity Movement (1884-1891), the Canada First Movement (1868), and so-called other “reactionary”, “racist” loyalisms.  They have been actively misrepresented by highly biased historians – and Saul, unfortunately, follows their lead.

Of Charles Mair, poet and Canada Firster, Saul suggests he was a racist.  “Of course, Mair didn’t get along with the Metis.  Perhaps it all came back to the idea that the Athenian must be of pure blood.” (p. 31)  In fact, living in St. Albert just before the Riel Rebellion, Mair twice travelled the (then) long journey to Ottawa (1883 and 1884).  He paced the halls of Parliament, telling all MPs who would listen that if something wasn’t done to provide justice for the Metis, there would be trouble.  John A. and the rest ignored him. 

The other Canada Firster beaten up by biased historians, Colonel George Denison, at first refused to go to the action against Riel because of his disgust at Ottawa’s political failure. Then when the remarkable leader, Poundmaker, was jailed, Denison was furious and joined the group that fought (and succeeded too late) to have the Indian leader released.  A police magistrate himself, Denison said the Poundmaker was “convicted on evidence that, in an ordinary trial would have assured his acquittal without the jury leaving the box….”

If Mair and Denison were racists, what were John A. Macdonald, his party, and the opposition members who failed to demand justice for the Metis before the Riel Rebellion and were content to jail the great Poundmaker?

Saul’s statement that the Canada Firsters understood Canada First to mean Britain first is simply and seriously wrong. (p. 257)

In the same spirit of error, Saul misunderstands Macdonald’s famous (1891) remark: “a British subject I was born, a British subject I will die”.  The remark arose from a very strong movement (of the elite Saul dislikes) to establish a Commercial Union between Canada and the U.S. (intended by many to lead to political union).

Learning of the power behind the movement Denison and friends – to balance and fight it in 1884 – worked on an expanded Imperial Unity Movement, using Britain to help hold off the U.S.A. from absorbing Canada.

The battle was joined and had political vigour.  Meetings and speeches and pamphlets followed one upon the other.  A Canadian in New York, Augustus Wiman, had much to do with “Commercial Union”. (He founded the famous Canadian Club in New York, partly to propagandize for Commercial Union.) The famous annexationist, Goldwin Smith, was a leading Canadian supporter.

My own research leads me to be sure the U.S. president was aware of the Commercial Union Movement, but kept a low profile on the matter. Waiting….

The Toronto Globe hired a special editor, Edward Farrer, to further Commercial Union.  He set to work, we are told, to produce a limited number of pamphlets to provide to key U.S. leaders, telling them what ways to cajole and force Canada into Commercial Union.  A worker in the compositing room became alarmed and got the information to Denison and his friends.  They convinced the worker to pull proofs of some of the pages and get them “out” and to sign a sworn affidavit.

The pages were put in the hands of John A. Macdonald.  It was at the time when the key “Commercial Union” election of 1891 was about to be fought.  In the election, Macdonald reported on the pamphlet and to declare his position as opposed to union with the U.S.A. he made his famous statement: “A British subject I was born.  A British subject I will die.”  There was no Canada when he was born, and in 1891 Canada was still not fully independent of Britain constitutionally.

Finally, Saul follows the Northrop Frye colonized reading of John Richardson’s WACOUSTA, getting it all wrong.  Frye’s “garrison mentality” theory about Canada is the total opposite of Saul’s Aboriginal expanding circle vision – and so Saul should have been aware of Frye’s biases.

Frye’s “garrison mentality” is the theory of an intellectual and political colonial.  He believed Canadians were alien from the landscape, that Canadian literature is inferior, and that Canadian society is an artificial, frightened set of “garrisons” alien to and afraid of the great land they are set upon - and the Aboriginal people of that land.

In fact Major John Richardson (part Indian) created a bizarre white man posing as an Indian (Wacousta), trying to get revenge for an Old World quarrel. Indians help to destroy Wacousta, and at the end of the novel white and Native people are living in peace and harmony. They are living, in fact, something like the condition John Ralston Saul believes grew into the expanding, egalitarian, Aboriginal-inspired discussion and negotiation circle.

For reasons he alone can explain, Saul begins his book with a gifted insight into Canadian character and its possibilities in a very difficult world. And then, for some inexplicable reason, (1) he erases the U.S. as a causative factor in the growth of Canadian colonial-mindedness. And (2) he accepts the propaganda from the elite he despises about the independence fighters of the nineteenth century and one of the anchor novels of Canada: WACOUSTA. It was the first novel written by an anglophone Canadian and is a key text in our cultural development.

Maybe John Ralston Saul sees only the industrial and financial elite in Canada, and fails to see there is one, too, in the life of our culture, doing its own work to destroy “Canadian civilization”.

 






 

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  1. Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:34 pm
    "Throughout his book, in fact, Saul protects the U.S.A. He appears to be manoeuvring to make sure he can?t be called anti-American."

    Of course, such a label isn't something Robin Mathews fears. In fact, he appears to revel in his anti-Americanism.

    And as for Saul's (and, it would seem, Mathews) lament at the "present crumbling of the great and unique Canadian vision of an ever-opening and inclusive egalitarianism", I can only laugh at this kind of politically-correct historical revisionism. The Pearson/Trudeau central planning, authoritarian, social engineering state was a creature of the 1960's, not the 1860's. Trudeau's thinking was far more influenced by Karl Marx and European socialists than by Louis Riel.

    Mathews' thinking is warped by his obsessive hatred of Americans and liberal individualism. I sometimes wonder what old Robin thinks of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, given that he shows little regard for individual rights and liberties.

    I'll take a "hillbilly" like Rick Hillier over elitist parasites like Mathews and Saul anyday.

    What's a poet? A writer without the work ethic.

  2. by RickW
    Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:41 am
    Where you been, Indie? I'm still waiting for a few answers............

    Guess you've been herded into a corner and are flummoxed. And so you spit out your tired and trivial epithets (like the above) in some sort of doomed defensive posture.

  3. Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:13 pm
    "The Pearson/Trudeau central planning, authoritarian, social engineering ,,,,,,,,,"

    What exactly is the difference between the central planning of governments and the globalized central planning, authoritarian, social engineering by the multinational corporate mafia, posing as "liberal individualists", while killing tens of millions every year by bad water and starvation ?

    The only difference I can see is that Stalin's GPU wore leather coats and bayonets while kholkhozifying agriculture and all industries, while the modern collectivizers are wearing business suits, meet at the Bilderbergers and use the perceived power of imaginary capital created by a bank to accomplish the biggest crime wave in human history.

    In the name of "globally competitive free enterprise, of course"

    If the Chapter 11 of NAFTA is not part of the collectivization racket, what is it ?

    By the way, I was in the manufacturing business in Vancouver through the Pearson/Trudeau years, often exporting my products to the USA, even to Hawaii, and all I could see was the real growth of hundreds of businesses all around, making a large selection of all kinds of products and goods, paying decent wages to their employees.

    They were all wiped out by phony "globalization", with daily growing number of homeless destitutes and people forced into minimum wage, part time jobs.

    All in the name of "efficiency" of course. The same efficiency racket the Soviets used to collectivize and enslave.

    Only the colour of the flag has changed. The purpose and people behind it are the same


    Ed Deak.

  4. Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:52 pm
    As noted by Rick, our self-assumed "individualist" friend, whom is really just another "herd follower" of the status quo, really just rails on against true "individualists" within this status quo context, never really having very much of anything "new" or "unique" to bring to the table.

    But especially, to be truly individualist, and dare to criticize and challenge the herd following assumptions of the ruling class in this country, and regrettably, too many of our overly numbed by pro-US Empire propaganda citizenry, with whom he identifies of course, and their slavish "wannabe" loyalties to and serving of the US Empire is but, to him, symptomatic of a deep hatred of Amerika. (Though let it be said, for all the odds against it, given a colonial mindset political and economic system in this country, and a too often US Empire parroting ruling class and propaganda media, this country has not yet produced a majority public opinion poll favouring becoming part of the US. And despite the fait accompli position of Canadians, who have been taken into the US Wars for Empire over their early majority opposition, when still actually given the simple democratic opportunity of demonstrating their opinion, continue to be deeply conflicted and divided, as they have from the beginning, re this country's "state demanded" participation in these US Empire wars of conquest in the Middle East. How e're much that has unfortunately not yet materialized into a mass willingness to engage, or take to the streets, to back up their majority sentiment.)

    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ ... 37&lb=breu

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/editorsbl ... istan.html

    The reality is, by any objective measure of economic and/or political sovereignty/independent measure, the Canadian state is a "state" and "economy" beholden and bent to the will of the US Empire by its US Empire Loyalist beholden elites, ass kissed by such as our self-styled "individualist" participant here. And though, likely, a majority of Canadians continue to cling precariously to notions and/or an independent wish as to their nationhood, they really are little more than a US Empire "subject" people, who feel that they dare not too boldly assert themselves and their own national interest, for fear of... (And the last ruling class representative leader this country had, who was actually prepared to, at all seriously, stand up to our US Overlords, was indeed Pierre Trudeau, for all other deep criticisms I might make of him. A "leftist"!!!??? What a bloody joke! Ignatieff, on the other hand, it looks like, of the same Liberal Party milieu, may just become the first actual openly US citizen Prime Minister of this country, finally putting an unambiguous "Vichy" face to the US takeover domination of Canada.)

    The one bright spot in all this, of course, is that the "global vision" that has been driving capitalism as an economic system, and the US Empire that is its main defender, advocate and armed might, is all beginning to unravel, with new, more localized, democratic "nationalist" trends beginning to reassert themselves, even within the so-called European Union, as well as elsewhere, which no less itself bought into the globalization mythology of capitalism. Even the US itself is showing early signs of being challenged by smaller, separatist tendencies within it, such as a latent and growing Hispanic population will to recover California and Texas, and assert their Spanish language, undoing the original "theft" from them. As well as there are other "separatist" tendencies showing signs of struggling to re-assert themselves within the Empire, amongst would be wingnut "Confederate" revivalists amongst White Southerners for example. Indeed, the Empire Homeland itself could fall, as the economic and global Empire hegemony crises deepen, assuming that they do, into its own kind of internal fratricidal class, race and competing national interests warfare. Not in the least outside the realm of possibility.

    Which explains in much part, the Obama administrations fevered attempt to put its Humpty Dumpty Empire state of economic and political affairs back together again. For they are not blind to the inherent risks here either.

    Again, it is only the herd follower mentality that is able to continue to blithely and naively insist upon its own insistent rose coloured glasses view of the current state of the capitalist world. True individualists will always insist on making their own more critical, balanced and objective judgements of phenomena, based on science and evidence, rather than faith based ideology. It is this that always allows more objective observers to distinguish between real "individualists", and those that are really only "herd followers", how e're much they protest.

  5. by RickW
    Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:05 pm
    This is directed to Ed, but if anyone else wants to jump in, feel free:

    The economists are busy hyping us about the "evils" of , and how it will lead to the ruination of just about everything. These same economists though, cannot say enough about the value of (providing that it remains "moderate"). I don't pretend to understand anything about markets, but I would think that would be bad and would be good (for we at the bottom of the feeding chain at least). And the impression I keep getting from our "leaders" (regarding how we've bottomed out and are on the road back) is akin to that old saw about how successful the operation was, but it's too bad the patient died.

    Anyone care to explain this?

  6. Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:07 pm
    Economists, market investors, realtors and just about anyone politically and otherwise invested in capitalism, of course has a stake in its earlier rather than later recovery from crises. Which causes a certain lack of objectivity and a desire to be optimistic about economic failure outcomes. So, as in the thirties and in the last major downturn of relatively recent years, in the late 70s to even into the late 80s to early 90s, from the beginning, the system's participants and apologists were, as they are now, always predicting recovery happening or just around the corner. (You do that often and long enough, at least to now, you will sooner or later be right. You've just got to keep people's hopes up and believing long enough... kind of like the Second Coming.) :)

    But what tells me at least, and I think any objective view of this latest collapse of capitalism, that a recovery is not yet soon in the cards, is that all the solutions are being directed at the exact wrong place within the class structure and plant infrastructure of the economy. Which has always been capitalism's problem in trying to resolve its own cyclical crises.

    The essential element necessary to a vibrant capitalist economy since time immemorial, inspiring its market activity and energizing the creativity of its capitalist "entrepreneurial" class, is as it always has been, people with money to spend, looking for and needing "stuff". No or severely cash restricted consumers out there in the marketplace, with little or no money to spend, is not a conducive environment to vibrant capitalism, let alone one in a deep funk.

    But what potential purchasing power is out there to stimulate capitalist activity is not going to the bottom end majority consumer where it is needed right now, for example, which is the working class, but to stave off debt and collapse of the already corporate wealthy. They are looking after their own immediate survival from their own self-created crisis (ponzi schemes etc.). And in this environment, where were you facing a purchasing power desert, the incomes of near every potential consumer of your product declining, growing unemployment, massive debt accumulation and declining "consumer optimism", to say nothing of collapsing global markets, where folks are maintaining a tighter grip on the contents of their wallets, if the state came to you with wads of cash to keep you afloat, how wise would you be to ramp up your investment and expand production activity into this sick economy?

    Where is your product going to go? Who's going to buy it? Some deep dark hole that will in turn spew out cash back at you?

    Not very realistic.

    So you will do what the current capitalists receiving copious state largess are doing: use it to pay down your own debt, maintain your bottom line attractiveness in the market or squirrel it away somewhere until better times appear on the horizon. (If you cannot directly line your own pockets with it.) In advance of which good times, once you really can see them, you will also buy up your competitors and create useful "synergies" or shut them down, so that he is not there to compete with you in the new market "bubble" creation time.

    You will know that capitalism is finally serious about its economic collapse problems if and when they finally start throwing money, not at the top end of the class/economic structure, but at the bottom class stratas; those folks who will actually take it out and spend it in the marketplace on their pent up and impoverished needs. 'Cause like I say, what stimulates the capitalist really, more than any state welfare largess, which but merely makes him rich by doing nothing, is folks out there in the marketplace with money to spend in their pockets, willing to buy your product or service. He/she, which capitalist will then move heaven and earth, create new products and baubles designed to separate said working class consumer from the contents of their wallets, and lock them back up again in the endless debt cycle of "free" capitalism.

    Unless or until, of course, the working masses of society catch onto and come to understand the capitalist economic cycle which periodically "over-robs" their hard won purchasing power in the "good times", on the way to the system's cyclical "killing of the goose that lays the golden egg", which collapses the ruling capitalist marketplace all over again, spreading misery and insecurity into masses of working class households. When that day comes, we might just then see the fight for a more "co-operative" rather than predatory "competitive" arrangement of the economy and society again take hold in the working class imagination.

    Coyote

  7. Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:34 pm
    Economists are the priesthood of the Money God. Priests have been warning their subjects about ruinations unless they stay free of "sin", whatever they declared as sin, and toe the prescribed line of their scriptures.

    Any economic system built on fraudulent definitions, like the present "monetary efficiency", and figures like the GDP, Growth and Productivity garbage they've been fooling and misleading the world with, is bound to collapse sooner, or later as this present stupid racket is collapsing now.

    Many of us have been trying to warn about this for years, most prominently since the 1988 FTA battle, which was one of the first major and most visible steps for self destruction, yet still being pushed by economists and the so called "conservatives", the worst menace, threatening human survival.

    The solution is very simple on paper, but will be a terrible mess to put into practice: Return to and develop physical efficiency and physical laws based economic systems, built around local self sufficiency to the greatest degree. In short, kill globalization and all the fraudulent "free trade" deals and get rid of foreign investors, unless they're absolutely necessary and are invited. The system we had in the 50s and 60s would be a good start. Stop the stock and money markets as the dominating influence on economies, pleasing only a worldwide near criminal element of speculators.

    The biggest problem is that, thanks to our incompetent economic priesthood, we have had a totally misdirected economy for the past 100, especially for the past 50 years, parasitic, built on destruction without care, as long as the imaginary monetary figures pleased the priesthood of economists. The repetition of history for the thousandth time.
    In many ways the Holy Inquisition of our centuries.

    We saw this coming 40 years ago, got out while we could and have built up a great degree of self sufficiency that is now paying off very well, in spades, in our old age.

    Nobody understands anything about our so called "markets", because we have none. What we have are a few multinational corporate mafia organizations who have taken control of whatever real markets we have had and are now in position to blackmail, ruin and take over producers and screw consumers out of the last pennies. The "individualists" of course

    There used to be strong laws against such criminal behavour and conspiracy, but no government dares to enforce them, because, according to the economic scriptures these criminal gangs are "competitive" and "efficient".

    In short, we're in the age of what an old Magyar proverb describes as: "The strongest dog screws" To put it politely. Yes, this is the age of the strongest dogs and the whole world is the screwee, blessed and enforced by governments.

    Of course, according to our "conservative individualists", self sufficiency is not "individualism", one has to be part of some multinational corporate mafia gang and take orders from a foreign country, to qualify.

    Ed Deak.

  8. Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:53 pm
    This constant shove, between the left and the right will never go away. History says it is so. Why is humankind destined to deliver two kinds of human beings onto this planet? If offered a plateful of brownies along with a 'help yourself, take as many as you like', the capitalist will gleefully take them all, wondering at the same time why one would be so stupid to offer them all, at no cost to him. The socialist/lefty would take two, leaving the rest for others to enjoy. The powerful ingrained drive to take all that you can leads us all into wars and unrest. Over and over again. We are seeing this now, with free marketer, globalized indiviualists unwilling to just stop, no matter whose back your riches were made off of. The powerfull US empire is on the path to failure and it ain't going to be pretty.

  9. Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:51 pm
    Interesting comments all. Though we are yet to hear again from our would be individualist, the "defender of the status quo herd" (Whom it is actually useful to have here, so that folks can see the contrast difference for themselves, and make their own judgements. It would be a duller place without him.)

    But going specifically to this "inflation vs deflation" question raised by Rick; the individual capitalist, which finds reflection in "his system's" behaviours and attitudes, actually has a contradictory attitude and response to the phenomenon of so-called inflation and deflation.

    Inflation, starting from a new "bubble creating" rise in the capitalist market cycle, following a "collapse" of the market, and for a time there into at least, is a generally perceived "good thing". The capitalist, of course, naturally tends to view an environment of rising or "inflationary" prices as a good thing actually, at least insofar as his/her own product(s) is concerned. Rising prices attached to his/her production inputs however, such as raw materials, energy costs and shipping etc. , or what is another capitalist's rising "inflationary" prices is always a bad thing. Wellll, near always. Another capitalist's rising prices, like rising wages, tends to cut into his "profit margins", more and more seriously over the market cycle time to the next collapse of the system.

    It's like, for example, the capitalist would always prefer, were he realistically able to get away with it, to have his workers labour for nothing, or volunteer their time out of the goodness of their hearts. That would be his "maximum profit margin" dream situation. The workers of his competitors however, and indeed all other capitalists, save to the again contradictory degree they influence the wage demands/expectations of his own workers, he would have them preferably very well paid, so that they can then go out into the marketplace and buy up all his product. Not a very real expectation, of course, so there is always this tug and push contradictoriness that goes on within capitalism there. They need good wages to sell their product into, but preferably not their own workers.

    Rising wages (inflation) consequently of course, over the time of the market cycle always becomes a bad thing, especially when it is his own worker's incomes up for discussion, influenced by other worker's gains. Rising prices, however, for this or that individual capitalist that is, except again when it involves his own production input costs, is always or near always a good thing. Another contradictory push and pull.

    Rising prices then, a good thing, certainly preferable to falling (deflationary) prices. It allows the capitalist to maintain his rate of profit over and above rising input costs and the demands of his own workers, ideally at least. (It all begins to unravel near the end of the market cycle however, as resistance hardens to worker income demands. and his purchasing power even begins to fall, and the worker increasingly becomes unable to purchase/consume at the ever rising prices rate.) Rising wages is, however, especially in regards his own workers, always a bad thing.

    Deflation of prices, however, except to the degree that one is talking about falling wages, is always a bad thing. It reduces rates of profits and does not allow during the price collapse period, for a recovery of previous production costs. A deflationary period is when really large numbers of capitalists fall under the wheels of the train, are unable to pay their own bills, and some jump off tall buildings etc. Deflation of prices is the signal that the collapse is in its final and most catastrophic stage; which has not actually happened in any previous down turn since the last Great Depression (1930s). (Which can lead to an actual situation where goods are destroyed (buried, sunk at sea, slaughtered etc), in a vain attempt to reduce product on the market and create a relative scarcity level that would support higher prices.)

    To the capitalist then, deflation is near always catastrophic. (Though, if you are a very large corporate capitalist, able to ride it all out, it really is the best time to buy.) To an impoverished and out of work person, however, you might be excused for viewing falling prices from a quite different perspective. (One man's misfortune, within capitalism, is always another's opportunity.)

    But through it all, what it is important to remember is, that contrary to all the "official" market analyst economists in the world, the cause of a deflationary collapse in any great depression is not a collapsing capitalist stock market. Rather a failed stock market is but the symptom of something even more fundamentally wrong within the economy, which no official source within capitalism anyway, really wants to talk about: The collapse of wages and consumer/working class purchasing power, which is always the signal of the end of another "bubble market" cycle, which drains the majority consumer from the marketplace and which always leads, as a consequence, to the collapse of stock and financial markets. When one understands this, one is at the beginning of understand the real dynamics within the capitalist marketplace, and why they cyclically collapse into what we are currently living through... AGAIN.

    Coyote

  10. Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:40 pm
    The Rickster: "Where you been, Indie? I'm still waiting for a few answers............"

    I have a life outside of the Internet. I work for a living, hang out with friends, you know...

    And the only herd I see is the one that has emerged in this thread. Look at you all, all stampeding in formation like the good little collectivists you are. ;-)

    The Deakster: "What exactly is the difference between the central planning of governments and the globalized central planning, authoritarian, social engineering by the multinational corporate mafia, posing as 'liberal individualists', while killing tens of millions every year by bad water and starvation ?"

    Tens of millions? Where'd you get that number? Let me guess, a doctor with a flashlight helped you find it.

    The Doggie: "But especially, to be truly individualist, and dare to criticize and challenge the herd following assumptions of the ruling class in this country, and regrettably, too many of our overly numbed by pro-US Empire propaganda citizenry, with whom he identifies of course, and their slavish 'wannabe' loyalties to and serving of the US Empire is but, to him, symptomatic of a deep hatred of Amerika."

    I have no loyalty to any empire. My affection for the US is a result of their (admittedly partial and imperfect) embrace of individualism and personal responsibility and their successful resistance and opposition to authoritarian socialism.

    I sometimes wonder if Canada isn't really divided into two camps - those who hate the US and those who hate Toronto. Canadians seem more easily united by their opposition to something than their support or embrace of something. Perhaps that's simply a human trait in general.

    More from the Doggie: "The one bright spot in all this, of course, is that the 'global vision' that has been driving capitalism as an economic system, and the US Empire that is its main defender, advocate and armed might, is all beginning to unravel, with new, more localized, democratic 'nationalist' trends beginning to reassert themselves, even within the so-called European Union, as well as elsewhere, which no less itself bought into the globalization mythology of capitalism."

    Yes, the old tribalisms are reasserting themselves. And the left in general seems to be trying to organize society into smaller scale "communities", largely because they realize that communalism won't scale beyond the village. So their answer - send everyone back to the village, where we become captive markets for the local monopolies. And then there's Ed Deak, who would have us all become sock-darners, wool spinners, amateur carpenters/mechanics and butter-churners again, just like in the good old days before the evil machines came to town.

    Comrade David Miller of Toronto thinks he can make that behemoth of a city into a village, one full of bike-riding, pacified, unionized, multiculturalized drones. But collectivist societies just don't scale, at least not without a lot of force or threat of force.

    Well, time to get back to my real life. Enjoy your stampede!

  11. Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:09 pm
    "Well, time to get back to my real life. Enjoy your stampede!"
    The Corporate Collectivizer


    C'mon, stop the bs. At least be honest with us. (As difficult as that is for any corporatist market profiteer.) Admit it. You love coming in here and stirring up the leftie rabble. It IS your life; what you live for. :lol:

    Coyote

  12. Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:11 pm
    According to UN figures, about 30 million people, most of them kids, die every year of starvation, bad water and easily preventable illnesses.

    Meanwhile the multinational mafia is stripping their countries bare, as in Africa, with phony loans and "investments".

    Indy, do yourself a favour and don't put words, especially your ideologically distorted baloney, into my mouth again. For one thing, your inputs show that you don't have the brains to understand even the simplest paradigms and all you can do is to repeat prescribed texts, very much like some well brainwashed Marxist. You hero may be Friedman, but the difference is only in the colour of the flag, offering nothing.

    For one thing, I can run circles around you in individualism alone. We've expected a major economic breakdown 40 years ago and have taken steps to become as self sufficient in as many fields, as possible. And it paid off big.

    Let's hear what you can do to save your neck when the big time crash comes that toy money
    "created" from the air will not be able to cover up.

    Ed Deak.

  13. by RickW
    Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:39 am
    Ed:
    Self-sufficiency is abhored by "individualists", because it is rife with the antedeluvian "back to the village" way of life. Try being self-sufficient in the Big City..........

    As for the US being the bastion of "indivudualism", I refer Indie to
    The Man in The Grey Flannel Suit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in ... annel_Suit
    I also refer Indie to the poll taken just before the "recession", which shows that Americans are profoundly unhappy with their lot, except on weekends and holidays.

    Also, there is this movie out more recently:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0959337/
    That sums up the beginning of this profound unhappiness.

    So, I don't know what fantasy Indie is living in adulating the US. It certainly isn't the one in this time and space.

  14. Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:17 am
    So, I don't know what fantasy Indie is living in adulating the US. It certainly isn't the one in this time and space.


    Poor chap, this Indie fellow. He's living in the past... a total other time and place. Another planet.



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