Blame America!!

paul martin is a hypocrite, here is what he supports with the likes of " Liberal cannidate, I believe in torture Michael Ignatieff ", the liberals as well as the Conservatives want to put your kids in harms way, your children will be cannon fodder for these rich out of touch people, who have no understanding of the working class.....YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE CANNON FODDER IF YOU VOTE FOR LIBERIALS OR CONSERVATIVES.....and their children will be laughing all the way to the bank and at their cocktail parties.....<br />
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Ignatieff now in dubious company over torture <br />
With U.S. lawmakers banning abuse, where do the Liberals stand<br />
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<a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1134774611384&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795">http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1134774611384&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795</a><br />
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T orture. Now that even George W. Bush has disavowed it, Michael Ignatieff, transplanted here from the U.S. as a Liberal candidate, finds himself in such company as Dick Cheney and other right-wing Republicans who still defend, and want to continue, the practice. <br />
The U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives have voted against cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of prisoners. <br />
The British House of Lords has ruled against it. <br />
The European media and public are outraged that Central Intelligence Agency planes used European airspace and airports to transfer detainees to secret CIA-run sites or to jails in countries that practice torture. <br />
In a related matter, the U.S. Senate wants the CIA to disclose its "black sites," the number of detainees and their well-being. <br />
Yet Ignatieff remains on record as supporting Torture Lite, which, in effect, is what the Bush administration claims to have been doing. The explanation never did fool the world and, ultimately, did not fool even the Republican-controlled Congress. <br />
When Republican Senator John McCain, himself tortured as a prisoner in Vietnam, moved to ban the practice by Americans, Bush lobbied to defeat the motion. But it passed 90 to 9. <br />
Cheney asked that the CIA be exempted (if it doesn't do torture, why the need for an exception?) Defying him, the House banned torture, 308 to 122. <br />
By Thursday, Bush folded and had McCain over to the White House. But true to form, he was loath to admit reversal. <br />
At the heart of the debate are two visions: one promoted by Bush, Ignatieff et al. that terrorism is such an evil that we have to set aside our democratic niceties. The other view is that you can't deal with immorality by aping it. <br />
McCain: "We have sent a message to the world that the U.S. is not like the terrorists." Congressman John Murtha, a Democrat: "If we allow torture in any form, we abandon our honour." <br />
Ignatieff also backed the Iraq war, just like Stephen Harper but unlike most Canadians and the Liberal government. <br />
Harper seems to have had a change of heart. He said recently a Tory government would not send troops to Iraq. <br />
Many Americans, too, have changed their views, among them Murtha. A Vietnam veteran who spent 37 years in the Marines, and a longtime hawk on defence, he shook up Washington Nov. 17 by saying, "It's time to bring the troops home." He denounced the Iraq adventure as "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion." <br />
Bush was so rattled he delivered four speeches to shore up support. He acknowledged failures — faulty intelligence, bad decisions that helped trigger the insurgency, botched rebuilding efforts, etc. He admitted that at least 30,000 Iraqis are dead. <br />
Yet, he said he was right to have invaded and that he would keep the troops there, because Iraq is central to the security of the U.S. <br />
His logic stacks up thus: He went to war because of weapons of mass destruction, about which he was given the wrong information, but he would have invaded anyway. Iraq was not a threat to the U.S. but, having made it one, he cannot retreat. <br />
The fact is, Iraq is still no threat to America. It is a threat only to the Americans in Iraq. <br />
Murtha is right that it's the American presence that fuels the insurgency. Indicative of this was the ceasefire, temporary no doubt, for Thursday's election, enabling Iraqis to vote in relative peace. <br />
As glorious as the march of the millions was, a more salient fact was that the cessation of hostilities was managed by ordering the American troops out of the cities, away from public sight. <br />
Voters wondered what the peace deal was with the insurgents. As a Baghdad cleric said: "If you can ask them that, why do you ask only for three days?" <br />
Part of the answer is that terrorists like Abu Musab Zarqawi are not the only insurgents. The insurgency is widespread and is not likely to end until the illegal and unwanted occupation ends. <br />
In the election euphoria, it's useful to remember that Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds alike — 82 per cent of Iraqis, according to a British defence ministry survey — want the Americans gone. <br />
What does Ignatieff think?<br />
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Why not?

They want to rule the world so they better get use to answering for their actions.

Can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

i'm american of canadian descent. wtf is wrong with soo many canadians? what is this bizarre pathological obsession the canadian elite and so-called intelligentsia have with the united states and americans in general? can'y you hold a nationalelection without dragging the united states and the american people into it? do you realize how wierd this situation looks to many americans (and other un-biased, disinteristed observors?)

canada has a nation should stop acting like a passive-aggressive, battered housewife. you are in reality nothing of the kind, and many canadians hide behind this mentality to escape real responsibilty and possible critisism. the real world isn't about a popularity contest.

who said the americans want to rule the world? you? is it not un-avoidable a economic, social,and military super-power (i know that word makes you cringe)will have huge influence (whether it's people want it or not) in the world on all levels?

canada doesn't take any real actions of consequence on the world stage. it hides behind the us and nato for it's defense, and the un for it's so-called deplomacy (it's "diplomats" aren't very good if they have soo little influence with their next-door neighbor and largest trade partner.) canada's much vaunted, so-called "peace-keeping" missions are a joke. canada's so-called open-arms approach to immigration is exclusively self-centered: the country is grossly under-populated and desperate measures are required to maintain it's economy.

naturally, canadians are more than happy prosper and benefit from their trade with the american monolith but still maintain their precious, holier-tha-thou national characteristic. the real powers in this world regard you with the kind of contempt people hold for the worst kind of hypocrites .

Um, the US doesn`t want Canada to take any sort of initiative when it comes to national defence, or international relations. The US had a fit when we opted out of going to Iraq; the US had a fit when we passed our own National Energy Program; the US had a fit when Lester Pearson suggested to Lyndon Johnson that perhaps a peaceful solution to Vietnam was worth considering; and the US had fits when we built the Avro-Arrow, a fighter jet in the 50`s that was 30 years ahead of its time. The uS wanted Canada to fall under its wing, shut up, and be nothing more than a reliable vassal state. Why all this is confusing to the US is this: the US media doesn`t report much of this type of thing to US citizens. Perhaps if US citizens took up more of an interest in Canada and why we get angry about certain issues, then you`d understand. This does not mean that Canadians don`t want to be friends with the US. We can be friends if the US sees Canada as an equal partner and a sovereign nation. Canada has been a better friend to the US as opposed to the other way around.

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Dave Ruston

>>>i'm american of canadian descent. wtf is wrong with soo many canadians? what is this bizarre pathological obsession the canadian elite and so-called intelligentsia have with the united states and americans in general? can'y you hold a nationalelection without dragging the united states and the american people into it? do you realize how wierd this situation looks to many americans (and other un-biased, disinteristed observors?)

canada has a nation should stop acting like a passive-aggressive, battered housewife. you are in reality nothing of the kind, and many canadians hide behind this mentality to escape real responsibilty and possible critisism. the real world isn't about a popularity contest<<<<

HEY JUSTME!

You are 100% correct! It does my heart good to hear someone tell it like it is!

Canada can be great again if Canadians take responsibility for themselves instead of reflexively blaming the US... If they stop defining being a “good Canadian” by being against the Americans. You are more of a Canadian patriot then they are if you can remind a few people of that.

-Doc, (Another Bastard/snow-monkey hybrid)

grow up.once again canada can do what it pleases. the us doesn't stop it. it is not your daddy. the american people don't care if you follow what you believe are canadian self-interests. what pisses americans (of all political persuasion, including your natural friends and allies)is the hypocracy, patholgical obsession with america and american internal politics, and sheer nastiness of many canadians like you. i'm assuming you are canadian.

>> Um, the US doesn`t want Canada to take any sort of initiative when it comes to national defence, or international relations.<<<<br />
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Just not true. <br />
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>> The US had a fit when we opted out of going to Iraq; the US had a fit when we passed our own National Energy Program; the US had a fit when Lester Pearson suggested to Lyndon Johnson that perhaps a peaceful solution to Vietnam was worth considering;<<,<br />
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A “fit”? <br />
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>> and the US had fits when we built the Avro-Arrow, a fighter jet in the 50`s that was 30 years ahead of its time<<,<br />
<br />
Avro Arrow myth: <br />
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The Avro Arrow was dropped into the drink not top appease the Americans but because the KGB had infiltrated the factory and had a set of plans. More importantly they were after the tooling technology (titanium is hard to work and form, the Canadians were excellent at it..) The soviets took the Avro technology and produced the Mig 25. <br />
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“In 2005, The History Channel aired a special in which it revealed for the first time that the totality of the Arrow's cancellation was due to a suspected Soviet KGB spy in the Avro plant, whose work culminated in the building of the MiG-25, an interceptor that bore many similarities to the Arrow.”<br />
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<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Arrow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Arrow</a><br />
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The RCMP was actually the ones who broke up the spy ring, but the damage was done. <br />
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“Erik ended up working for the RCMP and identified five agents to them. At least two of these were Canadian Communists themselves, and one had handed the Soviets part of the plans for the Avro Arrow.”<br />
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<a href="http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/1999/Intelligence_Mitrokhin.html">http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/1999/Intelligence_Mitrokhin.html</a><br />
<br />
The extent of this was reveled to the public when the Soviets opened up their archives…<br />
<br />
Here is your Arrow:<br />
<a href="http://www.jefflewis.net/graphics/aircraft/RL-201_Avro_Arrow.gif">http://www.jefflewis.net/graphics/aircraft/RL-201_Avro_Arrow.gif</a><br />
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Here it is as the Soviet Mig-25<br />
<a href="http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25p_2.jpg">http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25p_2.jpg</a><br />
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BTW the Lockheed skunk works had the A-12 (the predecessor to the SR-71 blackbird) in development, so the USA just didn’t have any motivation to quash the Arrow project. <br />
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>> The uS wanted Canada to fall under its wing, shut up, and be nothing more than a reliable vassal state.<<<<<br />
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That is what your media and politicians desperately want you to believe so they can control you through demagoguery… “Vote for us or Canada will become the 51st state! It is the way they keep themselves in power over you. <br />
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>> Why all this is confusing to the US is this: the US media doesn`t report much of this type of thing to US citizens. Perhaps if US citizens took up more of an interest in Canada and why we get angry about certain issues, then you`d understand.<<<<br />
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We tend to focus on ourselves; you tend to focus on us. Which is healthier? <br />
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>> This does not mean that Canadians don`t want to be friends with the US.<<<br />
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I see a lot here that isn’t exactly “friendly”. <br />
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>> Canada has been a better friend to the US as opposed to the other way around.<<<<br />
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As I said the last time you posted that:<br />
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“Those bastards”, “morons” “Failed Statesmen” Booing our anthem, burning our flags, media personalities and reporters who make their living by exclusively attacking the USA, “Greed was behind 9/11”, It was “payback,” Pee-wee-hockey teams attacked, This Canadian national victim-hood trip, women told to “go the fuck back to the USA”, whines about softwood, BSE, BMD, NORAD, NATO, flood management, the “northwest passage” passports, believing whatever crazy, paranoid, ridiculous myth that comes down the pike if it denigrates those “mericans”, the Artic, daylight savings time, Kyoto, even porcupine caribou! Jeopardizing American security over trade issues or simply in the never ending quest to assert yourselves, this delusional air of smug superiority, cars keyed, endless whining about all things American even as you do the same exact things yourselves or benefit from those actions. I could go on for hours here without even touching the bigotry expressed on the average vivelecanada thread.<br />
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We get never ending moralizing and lectures from your vocal know it alls. Your government never misses the opportunity to poke us in the eye, your media trashes us but is mute on the staggering trade surplus you enjoy, or military protection, or unfettered access to the worlds largest economic market… <br />
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Stop wallowing in mythology! Or at the very least, try to see that there are 2 sides to the story. <br />

>>the american people don't care if you follow what you believe are canadian self-interests. what pisses americans (of all political persuasion, including your natural friends and allies)is the hypocracy, patholgical obsession with america and american internal politics, and sheer nastiness of many canadians<<


Outstanding! Bullseye!

>> The US had a fit when we opted out of going to Iraq; the US had a fit when we passed our own National Energy Program<<,

"A “fit”?"

Yea, a fit. How many US companies would no longer sell to Canadian customers, or buy Canadian products, or hire Canadian workers because of the actions of our government? How many still won't?


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"If you must kill a man, it costs you nothing to be polite about it." Winston Churchill

Our anti-Americanism goes back to 1776 you uninformed dupe.

Out anti-Americanism is a virtue shared by many other political cultures as well, so we are not alone.

EVER WONDER WHY?

Our domestic politics are our domestic politics. We don't like Your. You don't like Ours. Who cares ?

You have coveted our nation, land, and resources for centuries. We have never NOT known this.

We don't trust you. We are Allies out of necessity. Our true interests lay with the Commonwealth and NATO.

We tolerate you for own own ends. We like you as individuals - generally speaking, but we have no desire to be like you, with the exception of some moral zeroes in Alberta.

TT

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‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’ (Edmund Burke)

Dave wrote: "if the US sees Canada as an equal partner".

What on earth makes you think Canada deserves to be seen as an equal of the USA?

Does Canada have a comparable economy?
Does Canada have an extensive, well funded research and development effort, and innovative industries?
Does Canada produce anything that is not made by American-owned companies, and sold to Americans?

Canada exists simply as an accident of geography. Certainly that is not sufficient reason to demand equal status.

>>>How many US companies would no longer sell to Canadian customers, or buy Canadian products, or hire Canadian workers because of the actions of our government? How many still won't?<<

I can only think of 1. A small welding company in Texas. There are about two hundred thousand Canadian workers in the USA and many more Canadians are employed in American companies that do business in Canada. No, no “fit”. Anger and resentment in the way it was handled, yes. It is one thing to say “no”, it is another thing to say “no” and deliberately poke the person in the eye at the same time in the name of asserting yourselves.

All countries deserve to be seen as equal partners. The US economy gets a free ride on the US dollar being used as a petro dollar. But that`s about to change as Iran wants to sell oil in Euros. Oops! Do I hear war drums? And the US economy would surely not be as big as it is were it not for Canadian resources! But yes, most Canadians like me clearly want to build our country without worrying about the next step taken by the US political-industrial-military complex. When we do one day get to do that, we`ll just see what happens. But let`s be honest here. Any time another country tries to do its own thing, the US has always intervened and installed tyrant puppets.

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Dave Ruston