[whelan costen]

Well Kory, it is disgusting, but some people spend their energy spewing hate; that is how Hilter was able to create such hate towards a group of people, claiming that one group is taking advantage, taking jobs from 'legitimate' people etc.! When people become desperate, need jobs and are hungry, and one group is held up as the 'reason' for all their troubles, hate isn't far behind.

Really sad, and I am also sure untrue...Welfare is very difficult to get no matter who you are, so whoever is writing this garbage is showing us their intelligence and inability to do their homework before they spout off!

[Kory Yamashita]

Well, don't you have to prove that you won't be a burden on our social safety net before you can immigrate? I was under the impression that you need a guaranteed job, a whole whack of cash, or an economically stable sponsor. So wouldn't that effectively negate any chances of immigrants coming to Canada for welfare? </p> And aren't most of our immigrants skilled workers or professionals? I thought we were the brain drain on other countries like South Africa!?!?! So are these doctors and lawyers who immigrate going on welfare? Heck, I'd even go so far as to say that the immigrants might be paying more into the system than Canadian citizens (proportionally, of course). Maybe the immigrants are actually funding welfare for the lazy Canadians. Maybe.

[Dr Caleb]

I doubt anyone in this situation is on Welfare, let alone surviving on welfare.<p> I can see where these actions can be misconstrued. I wouldn't doubt there are people that do this kind of thing, and I'll bet they fake SIN's and have more than one fake cheque coming in. I would doubt they are recent immigrants.<p> It's common to have people immigrate from poorer countries, work like dogs, buy a house, bring their family over and subdivide the house, and everyone pays rent. The family members then too, works their fingers to the bone until they can afford their own house, and the process continues. I've known several people who did this for their family members. It's a smart way to work your way up in society, earn a decent living and still keep a roof over your head.<p> We all had to do something similar, just not on the same scale, did we not? Live with Mom and Dad until we could afford our first apartment, then you and the fiancee scrape to buy a house? I see it as no different, they just had to start at a later age than us, and start from nothing.<p> I've also seen the opposite end of the spectrum. A nice eastern asian gent would drive a dump truck near where I worked. Every day, he'd park on the side of the road, a cab would come, another man would get out, take something from the driver and drive off in the truck. The driver would get in the cab, and leave.<p> What was happening was this: The cab and the dump truck was purchased by the same Mosque to which all three men belonged (include the cab driver). The cab driver would pick up and deliver these men (and others) to their trucks for shift change, free of charge. The men would work to pay the mosque back for the cab and the truck. Nice arrangement! The only problem I had was what the men were exchanging. A drivers license! One guy learns english well enough to get his class 1, all three men look similar enough that they think a cop couldn't tell the difference. One truck, one license, at least three drivers. That's just wrong.<p>

[whelan costen]

Yes Dr. Caleb, abuse of the system is wrong, whether you are an immigrant, a citizen, a member of parliament and on and on...we all know people who get around the system, it's still wrong, but when I see my neighbour doing something illegal and he happens to be white, I don't assume all white people are like that; nor should we make such assumptions about any 'people' ...it is also wrong. Stereotypes just turn us all into idiots who can't make up our own minds about people.

[Reverend Blair]

It might be wrong, but I got my first bar-card (do they even still use those?:lol:) when I was sixteen. My intention was not to do anything as noble as working, it was to drink beer and shoot pool. I know there are implications to driving a large truck (ability and insurance etc.), but is it really that much worse?

I've seen that poem before...a lady I know sent it to me asking if she should post it at another site for the same reasons it was posted here. Given the atmosphere at the other site I asked her not too, but did suggest that she call the cops.

I get a pretty big laugh out of these racists who want to save Canada for us white folks. It used to be that they wanted to save Canada for the English (no Irish allowed), then for western Europeans (damned Ukrainians and Pollacks were messing things up for the Irish folks, I guess). Now (actually always, but now it has become stylish) it's white people against all those people who dare not to be born white, Christians against all those people who have other gods or other versions of the same god.

I can hardly wait until the aliens land. It will solve racism by giving us all somebody really different to hate. Maybe we should have stayed in the trees?

[sthompson]

I think Whelan Costen has hit on a basic problem, which is that people tend to scapegoat others (meaning especially groups that are different), and that this is probably even more likely to happen when everyone is struggling to make ends meet. Of course, it would make much more sense to actually blame the current government(s) for the policies that are making things worse for everyone when we're having trouble getting jobs, but fewer people seem to make that connection than the numbers who decide it's those lousy immigrants taking all the jobs away from us "real" Canadians. <p> And now we have this new climate since Sept 11 that seems to make it "OK" to hate people from the Middle East and even Asia, because they're "all terrorists". <P> Anybody read "Obasan" by Joy Kogawa? I recommend it very highly if you want to understand what it was like for Japanese Canadians in Canada during the last war. I hope we're not headed down a similar path.

[Eurocanuck]

Well, guys, it's true that Canada tries to get well educated and financially stable people but it doesn't always succeed to do that. Firstly, because we have Quebec provincial immigrants selection, for which you need just 2 300 CA$ and not 10 000 CA$, secondly, because many people lie that they have 10 000 bucks, they borrow from friends or do other tricks to prove they have the money and thirdly, the immigration officers at the airports rarely count how much cash do you have in your pocket, when you enter the country. Thus, especially in Quebec many people apply on the third month for social welfare and they just stay like this for years. I met an Iranian, who sponsored or helped otherwise to 14 of his relatives to immigrate to Canada! So, my conclusion is that even though this poem is full of hate and racism, unfortunately, there is a grain of truth in it.

[whelan costen]

Well, if there is a grain of truth in that, then immigration in Canada should be looked into in a huge way, the racism and hate in the poem is not excusable, but the problems behind the immigration abuses are issues that should be addressed.

[Reverend Blair]

Maybe we need to have a hard look at the policy...maybe it's too harsh. When my great-grandparents came over they didn't have any money. They were given land and the men went to work in the bush (five brothers and their families came at once) so they could buy horses, equipment and seed for the next spring. They were given that because of their farming background (something they weren't fully truthful about) and because Canada needed people. That seems a far cry from our present immigration policies. Perhaps we should be offering training in jobs we want to fill instead of requiring a certain amount of cash?

[Kory Yamashita]

There's just a supply and demand issue. There are a lot more people wanting to live in Canada than we allow. And that limit to immigration is sort of a recognition of natural expansion limits, although I don't think people really spend enough time thinking about things like that very often anymore. -KY

[Kano]

Someone mentioned that many immigrants to Canada are skilled professionals, a 'brain drain' from countries such as South Africa.

I believe the largest class of new immigrants is made up of family members of those who have already immigrated and established themselves. But the working immigrants who establish themselves generally have to be skilled professionals.

This 'brain drain' thing is often a grotesque waste of talents and skills, though.

It's true that countries like India, Taiwan and South Africa lose key educated professionals. The pathetic part is that Canada often fails to take advantage of the skills these immigrants bring with them.

At my last job, in Vancouver, the parking garage attendant was a middle-aged Indian gentleman, a friendly guy who I would chat with when I rode my bike out. He told me he was a doctor in India, presumably part of the basis for his immigration to Canada. But he couldn't practice medicine here. Instead, after working and saving for years to support his family, he was studying to be a nurse (becoming a doctor again would take the full 8 years or whatever).

What a crock! I realise that the medical profession has high standards to meet, but surely there must be some way of recertifying those who have already trained to be doctors! It was going to take this guy four years to become a nurse! Couldn't he have upgraded his Indian doctor training in less than that? And if not, what's the point in requiring that new immigrants have these kinds of skills? An M.D. isn't all that useful for a parking lot attendant.

He had randomly bumped into a friend from his hometown in India, a doctor colleague who was now driving a taxi in Vancouver.

Another acquaintance of mine has a mother who is a janitor. She immigrated from Russia or one of the former Soviet republics (can't recall which), where she was a PhD research chemist. Her credentials were unrecognised as well.

These people are making huge sacrifices for the futures of their families. All this really paints our immigration system as pretty arbitrary. I'd like to see the stringent requirements relaxed, and immigration increased. We have lots of isolated rural communities desperately in need of skilled medical professionals, like northwest BC where I come from for example, and at the same time skilled immigrant medical professionals working in unrelated jobs in the cities.

Why aren't we putting those skills to use? Why aren't we recertifying these professionals? Why not pay for skill upgrading, and require new immigrants to live in isolated communities for a certain number of years?


Hm.
Kano.

[President Blair]

The Liberals historically and at present time are nationalists. They don't suffer from the internationalism of the poor left or the internationalism of the financiers right wing. The real Liberal policy goes like this: You need 2.1 replacement rate to have a continuity or self preservation The birth rate in Canada is 1.6-1.8 The balance has to be filled by immigration: Who do we attract or accept? The GDP for this year is so much Government Revenue will be this much It can accommodate between 30-50K immigrants that the government can settle slowly supporting them upto a year. The rest have to be 150K family reunion and support About 30-50K must be self supporting immigrants from business class who deposit money in canadian banks and professionals hired by companies in Canada. That is why a liberal government announces every year as to what the number and the expected composition is. As per the source the Liberals tell us that no country determines the source: We got from Europe ewhen there was persecution or land can be given away. We got from europe again when there was Nazi, fascist, communism and the resulting wars, poverty and opression. We got from the empire always south africa, india, pakistan, srilanka etc We get from wars in Vietnam, Africa, Latin America etc We don't create the source of immigrants, unless you red neck is prepared to pay 10% more in taxes to bring selected settlers. That is the whole truth nothing but the truth. Further reading: William Lyon Mackenzie King Diaries The Scotsman – Scotish news paper and website Lester Pearson on Multicultural and Bilingualism Trust me on this one- unless and until immigration is seen and discussed in real and truthful way it will always be an issue interpreted to all the languages we have in this country.

[President Blair]

<b>The Truth about Immigration:</b>

The Liberals historically and at present time are nationalists. They don't suffer from the internationalism of the poor left or the internationalism of the financiers right wing.

The real Liberal policy goes like this:

You need 2.1 replacement rate to have a continuity or self preservation (Science)

The birth rate in Canada is 1.6-1.8 (Science)

We need family policy to increase the birth rate (Social Science)

It costs up to 100K to raise a productive participatory citizen (Science)

The balance has to be filled by immigration: Who do we attract or accept? (Reality)

The GDP for this year is so much (Science easily amanipulated)

Government Revenue will be this much (Semi-Science)

It can accommodate between 30-50K immigrants that the government can settle slowly supporting them upto a year. (Reality and Manipulation)

The rest have to be 150K family reunion and support (Realitiy)

About 30-50K must be self supporting immigrants from business class who deposit money in canadian banks and professionals hired by companies in Canada.(Manipulated some realitiy)

That is why a liberal government announces every year as to what the number and the expected composition is.(Truth they always do)

As per the source the Liberals tell us that no country determines the source: (Truth nothing but the truth)

We got from Europe ewhen there was persecution or land can be given away.
We got from europe again when there was Nazi, fascist, communism and the resulting wars, poverty and opression.
We got from the empire always south africa, india, pakistan, srilanka etc

We get from wars in Vietnam, Africa, Latin America etc
We don't create the source of immigrants, unless you red neck is prepared to pay 10% more in taxes to bring selected settlers.

That is the whole truth nothing but the truth.

Further reading:
William Lyon Mackenzie King Diaries
The Scotsman &#8211; Scotish news paper and website
Lester Pearson on Multicultural and Bilingualism

Trust me on this one- unless and until immigration is seen and discussed in real and truthful way it will always be an issue interpreted to all the languages we have in this country.

[michou]

The truth is, immigrants have the same rights Canadians do and that is how it should be. Any Canadian who sees immigrants as less deserving or categorizes them as parasites in our country is nothing more than a racist. Canada presently takes in immigrants because it has no choice to do so if it wants to maintain its tax revenue base intact. In the next 20 years, Canada will even extend its welcome to a greater number of immigrants. If those of us who have grey hairs (baby boomers) want to have the same services presently available when WE retire, those working immigrants had better be welcomed with open arms and assisted into integrating within our society. Attention, integration is not the same as assimilation. The influx of a greater number of immigrants will change the face of Canada, again as it should. Nothing is static and neither are societies and the people who make them. People movement has always existed throughout history. The next historic people movement which may impact Canadian immigration policies will most probably come from south of the border. If the US continues its steady fall into an autocratic oligarchy , Americans may start arriving in droves as draft dodgers, war resisters, American liberals and progressives, conscientious refugees. As history teaches us and as our own ancestors did in their day, people move with the times.

[Amethyst]

[QUOTE BY= michou]Attention, integration is not the same as assimilation. The influx of a greater number of immigrants will change the face of Canada, again as it should. Nothing is static and neither are societies and the people who make them.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />This is a very good point. One of the best and most efficient qualities of Canada is our natural inclination towards integration and co-operation rather than assimilation and aggression. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= michou]The next historic people movement which may impact Canadian immigration policies will most probably come from south of the border. If the US continues its steady fall into an autocratic oligarchy , Americans may start arriving in droves as draft dodgers, war resisters, American liberals and progressives, conscientious refugees. As history teaches us and as our own ancestors did in their day, people move with the times.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I personally know 3 different families (2-4 people each) who have moved from the USA to Canada, due in large part, to the socio-political-economic environment in the US. It seems to not just be an issue of WHO is in power, but that the inherently aggressive practices of the USA are making its own citizens' lives more and more uncomfortable. The good news, for Canada is that the people who migrate to Canada from the US, are usually the most progressive and the most resourceful, in terms of knowledge of the socio-political structure of the world. <br />