[Dr Caleb]

If you delete those first two words in your post, I won't have to give you the 'let's not make it personal' lecture . . . <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] You bastards, honestly the French-Canadian people are a great ethnic Canadian community who have contributed wonders to this nation. And while many (like Canadians in other provinces) have been upset in the past by exclusion from Ottawa and resorted to "seperatist" parties, the vast majority are proud of their Canadian heritage and do not want to EVER seperate! <br /> <br />Yet you seperatists seem to cast the province of Quebec in the role of an "oppresed and downtrotted nation", even though most Quebeckers do not think of themselves in that way. Why? Because you're language and culture have been protected and supported by the government since 1867? Is that it, or is it because since the 1970s Canadians have provided you're community with completely bilingual signs and services in every province and territory, which you're government shall not do to accomidate non-French speaking Canadians. <br /> <br />Hmmm, well I thought that the Irish, the Basques and the Kurds what with famines, ethnic cleansing, segregation, conquest and actual attempts to slaughter their languages and cultures had it bad. <br /> <br />I mean the people of Quebec have to suffer with living in one of the world's most respected and democratic nations, a nation which even though now it has fallen to no. 7 on the UN chart (that chart is made using a vareity of factors and is not completely accurate) is among the the greatest handful of nations in the world to live and a nation which has bended over backwards to help the people of Quebec in their times of need. <br /> <br />I mean, Newfoundland and the Territories have it about a thousand times as rough as Quebec has it, yet Ontario and Alberta supply Quebec's economy with by far the most in equalization payments. We do things like this, because you are our fellow Canadians! We love you guys, just remember that when those Blocheads tell you otherwise and tell you about how those horrible "Anglos" west of the Ottawa river treat the oppresed people of Quebec. <br /> <br />If you want to see a nation in turmoil, full of oppresion then by all means buy a ticket to Turkey and visit their Kurdish provinces, but if you want to see a prosperous province which is part of the world's most democratic society than you have no further to look than you're own home province! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Recently. the PQ in Quebec interviewed thousands of university students in Quebec. They didn't like what they heard. The young people told them separatism was "outdated," "Outmoded," and "didn't adress the issues, such as poverty, globalizaiton, and education." I guess the youth will save Canada. <br /> <br />They also don't forget that Bouchard cut social-spending as much or more than Charest is currently doing. <br /> <br />As for separatists--don't assume that they are motivated by facts or intelligence. Even back in the 1970s, Quubec's separatist government commissioned studies by objective Europeans, asking them to make a determination on the Quebec question. These Europeans concluded that there was no oppression in Canada, and that separatism was an "artificial creation." So there. <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br />

[fleur-de-lys]

As I can see you are proud to be canadian. What about if the USA would have conquered Canada ? Even if the (english)canadian culture, lifestyle and political point of view is very similar you would probably think that you deserve independence from the USA because of your differences. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Because you're language and culture have been protected and supported by the government since 1867? [/QUOTE]<br /> since 1867, okay so I can't talk about Lord Durham's report to the british authorities (1839). But anyway, the confederation was just to place the francophones in political minority, Quebec became one of the 4 provinces with 33,7% of the Canadian's population. Then the Parti Patriote could not get elected again.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]the vast majority are proud of their Canadian heritage and do not want to EVER seperate![/QUOTE]<br /> FALSE! in the last referendum, 49.6% voted for yes. It's still a minority, but a lot of people voted no even if they are for the sovereignty. Why ? simply because they are scared ! They think that if we win the referendum, Canada will never accept it so they will send army. In 1995 Jean Chrétien sent army to the Labrador, ready for that. Recently, in the TV show "Tout le monde en parle", Justin Trudeau said that if he were PM during a referendum with a majority of yes, he will never give sovereignty. He exactly thinks like his dad.<br /> <br /> In Québec nobody is celebrating the Canada day and almost everyone, even the federalists, celebrate the fête NATIONALE Saint-Jean-Baptiste.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Recently. the PQ in Quebec interviewed thousands of university students in Quebec. They didn't like what they heard. The young people told them separatism was "outdated," "Outmoded," and "didn't adress the issues, such as poverty, globalizaiton, and education." I guess the youth will save Canada[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> In fact, the polls say that the youth are in majority for the sovereignty of Québec.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]

[michou]

DAMN separatists ?<br /> <br /> You are catholic Mc/B aren't you ?<br /> <br /> Most Québécers have left the church teachings and have stopped believing in hell. <br /> Québec is nothing like hell today and won't become one either when it becomes sovereign.<br /> <br /> 107 nations around the world have gained their independance since 1945. None have gone back to their previous 'attachments' and none have been damned to hell either.<br /> <br /> A nation does not have to be oppressed and downtrodden in order to decide that it wants to control its own destiny.<br /> I'd rather choose my own hell than have it forced upon me by someone else on my behalf. Let Québécers decide for themselves.

[Amiral]

Moi je l'aime bien le «damn separatists, you bastards», je serais gêné de me présenter à côté d'intellectuels qui commencent pas un mot gentil. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

[fleur-de-lys]

Évidemment monsieur Macdonald/Borden perd toute crédibilité sur ce sujet en nous insultant. Je suis content qu'un modérateur l'ai averti, même si l'auteur ne souhaite pas modifier son post. J'espère qu'une fois n'est pas coutûme et que les posts ne vont plus commencer par des insultes gratuites dorénavant.

[Dino]

[QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys] As I can see you are proud to be canadian. What about if the USA would have conquered Canada ? Even if the (english)canadian culture, lifestyle and political point of view is very similar you would probably think that you deserve independence from the USA because of your differences. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If Quebec were a country before the invasion of the British then fleur-de-lys you would have a point for independence. In 1812 if the americans had won the war we today would be americans and wouldn't be talking about how we could have been something more if it wasn't for the united states. If in 1812 Canada was a country and the United States launched a war and won we could be talking to today about independence because we would have proof that we were a country.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]FALSE! in the last referendum, 49.6% voted for yes. It's still a minority, but a lot of people voted no even if they are for the sovereignty. Why ? simply because they are scared ! They think that if we win the referendum, Canada will never accept it so they will send army. In 1995 Jean Chrétien sent army to the Labrador, ready for that. Recently, in the TV show "Tout le monde en parle", Justin Trudeau said that if he were PM during a referendum with a majority of yes, he will never give sovereignty. He exactly thinks like his dad.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It's stupid to think that people in Quebec aren't proud to be Canadian. You can be both proud to be Quebecois and Canadian. If the movement for separation was so strong and people in Quebec weren't proud of there Canadian heritage why is it in 1980 and 1995 never once in the question that was asked did it refer to making quebec a country. Why were Lucien Bouchard and Parizeau campaigning that if you voted 'oui' you could still keep your canadian citizenship,passport and Canadian money. It's because the vast majority of Quebecers have nothing against Canada. They may not like the constitution or how the federal government handles things but they are not extremists. And for Justin Trudeau's comments if 60% of Quebecers voted yes for separation then federalists would have no other choice to accept it. If it was 50% no one has to accept it. There wouldn't be war betweeen Canada and Quebec because no one with some sense in charge of Quebec would try forming a country with 51% of the vote.You would have problems within Quebec.Most countries in this world that have separated have had support of 80% or higher that's why there countries function. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]In fact, the polls say that the youth are in majority for the sovereignty of Québec.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It goes to my point that separation doesn't make much sense. Why is it that youth are more likely then older quebecers to want separation? Have young people in Quebec found out new things about there history that there grandparents did not know? If separation has to do with history why doesn't Gille Duceppe campaign on it. His reason for wanting Quebec to be a country is by telling Canada 'parce qu'on est differents'!<br /> Wow what a great reason to break apart a country!<img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br /> Quebecers are not a "people" UNLESS you choose to become a country. What makes Quebecers different from Canada is the fact you are less religious. But remember this isn't because the majority of you are french. In the 1950's do you know what province was the most religious? QUEBEC!!<br /> <br /> Then in the 1960's came the quiet revolution. Then quebec changed social,political,religious and artistic.<br /> Because of that change it doesn't make Quebecers all of a sudden a country. <br /> <br /> And for the title Damn Separatist. It's a bit harsh but really for me personally separatists don't bother me because the issue of separation it comes off as being the most irrational thing ever that I can't take it seriously!!<br /> <br /> Le Bloc and PQ make it out to be like Quebec being a province in Canada is some sort of living hell. I never hear Gilles Duceppe talking about what Quebec would lose if it became a country. <br /> <br /> For example how are you going to function as a country if you have no currency! I never hear the PQ and Bloc talking about that.

[fleur-de-lys]

[QUOTE by=dino]<br /> If Quebec were a country before the invasion of the British then fleur-de-lys you would have a point for independence. In 1812 if the americans had won the war we today would be americans and wouldn't be talking about how we could have been something more if it wasn't for the united states. If in 1812 Canada was a country and the United States launched a war and won we could be talking to today about independence because we would have proof that we were a country.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Quebec was not a country, what does that change ? It was a french colony conquered by the british. They placed us in minority to assimilate us, they destroyed all our pride by killing all our heros. Canadians are still in majority for the monarchy.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE by=dino]<br /> It's stupid to think that people in Quebec aren't proud to be Canadian. You can be both proud to be Quebecois and Canadian. If the movement for separation was so strong and people in Quebec weren't proud of there Canadian heritage why is it in 1980 and 1995 never once in the question that was asked did it refer to making quebec a country. Why were Lucien Bouchard and Parizeau campaigning that if you voted 'oui' you could still keep your canadian citizenship,passport and Canadian money. It's because the vast majority of Quebecers have nothing against Canada. They may not like the constitution or how the federal government handles things but they are not extremists. And for Justin Trudeau's comments if 60% of Quebecers voted yes for separation then federalists would have no other choice to accept it. If it was 50% no one has to accept it. There wouldn't be war betweeen Canada and Quebec because no one with some sense in charge of Quebec would try forming a country with 51% of the vote.You would have problems within Quebec.Most countries in this world that have separated have had support of 80% or higher that's why there countries function.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What ? You think I'm stupid because I think the majority of the quebecois are not proud to be canadian ? Are you sure that you know what you are talking about ? You always lived in Saskatoon, you don't know what is going on there.<br /> <br /> The Basque "country" has never really been a country. But the people from Basque always lived there, in this territory, before the tribes like the Franks ( who made France ), Iberians and celts ( who made Spain ) came around them. You think the Basques should not have independance because it never been a country ?<br /> <br /> What about the chinese occupation of Tibet ?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Quebecers are not a "people" UNLESS you choose to become a country. What makes Quebecers different from Canada is the fact you are less religious. But remember this isn't because the majority of you are french. In the 1950's do you know what province was the most religious? QUEBEC!!<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Saying that the quebecers are not a "people" is an insult for us and our culture. I will retain myself to say what I think about what you said after because it piss me off. We are really different from canadians.<br /> <br /> Do you really think I don't know about the catholic religion in Quebec before the quiet revolution ? Are you looking for a medal for your knowledge on "Canada's" history ? Please stop to say facts about Quebec which have no link with your argument.

[Dino]

With the Basques they actually have an overwhelming majority of people who want a country.<br /> <br /> No one in Canada is stopping you from having a country.<br /> Tibet can't even vote to have a country. If they did and it was an overwhelming majority they would be a country.<br /> <br /> France and Spain don't even recognize the Basques as people. Are they even allowed to have a political party?<br /> Funny how the French government silently backs your weak campaign for separation in quebec but won't do the same for the Basques.At least in Canada people let you have a party.<br /> <br /> <br /> The only people with special status are aboriginals not Quebecers.Natives are a people because you actually know what a native is.What is a Quebecer? How can I tell apart a quebecer from a english speaking Canadian.<br /> <br /> I may be from Saskatoon but if Quebecers aren't proud to be Canadian why don't we ever hear Gilles Duceppe speaking on behalf of quebecers that they aren't proud to be Canadian?<br /> <br /> I think it's stupid of you to say the majority of Quebecers are not proud to be Canadian. If you were to give people in Quebec two options break apart the country or find a constitutional deal to keep quebec in Canada they would choose changing the constitution. If they REALLY weren't proud to be Canadian then they would choose to break apart the country. That's how I come to my conclusion that most Quebecers separatists and federalists simply don't like the constitution. Show me evidence that people aren't proud to be Canadian in Quebec.

[fleur-de-lys]

[QUOTE by-dino]France and Spain don't even recognize the Basques as people. Are they even allowed to have a political party?<br /> Funny how the French government silently backs your weak campaign for separation in quebec but won't do the same for the Basques.At least in Canada people let you have a party.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Sorry to be so direct with you but I suggest you to shut your mouth when you don't know what you are talking about. I met Gorka Perea and Eduardo Plagaro, two Basques refugees. Why do you blame France ? France would be the first to give independance to Basque country, the problem is Spain ( btw most of Basque's territory is in Spain ).<br /> <br /> Both France and Spain recognize the Basques as people. The Basques also have an autonomous government which the chief has the title of president. The Basques, like the Catalans, have much more political power than us, with our provincial powers that all others province have.<br /> <br /> lets see the Basque's political parties by order of popularity:<br /> <br /> PNV - Nationalist party, center-right<br /> EA - Independentist, social democrat<br /> PP - Pro-Spain, right wing<br /> PSE - Basque's socialist party<br /> PSOE - Spain's socialist party<br /> IU - left wing federalists<br /> EH - radical independentists, prohibed in Spain, allowed in France.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Show me evidence that people aren't proud to be Canadian in Quebec.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I already spoke about it, Canada day VS Fête nationale du Québec ( St-Jean Baptiste ). Almost nobody is celebrating Canada day here.

[Dino]

So if people don't celebrate Canada Day they aren't proud to be Canadian?<br /> <br /> People in montreal celebrate Canada day. And of course people celebrate Quebec's national holiday they live there!!<br /> <br /> The french don't want the Basques to be a country. If they did they would be helping them. Besides aren't the Basques actually have origin were they are from. Not Quebecers. That's why people like Gilles Duceppe have such a hard time convincing natives that Quebec needs to be a country because they simply reply what right do you have to break apart the country? Because you didn't like how history turned out and that it wasn't fair what happened to you from the evil British? They didn't either but they've moved on!! (You and your separatists friends could learn something from natives across this land.) <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br /> Always remember that it's not english speaking Canadians that are hlding Quebec from being a party it's francophones in Quebec who don't think like you. They think like me. Unlike Quebec seperatists the Basques actually have a majority of there people supporting them.

[fleur-de-lys]

[QUOTE by= dino]<br /> People in montreal celebrate Canada day. And of course people celebrate Quebec's national holiday they live there!!<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> No, each year at July 1 a friend call you to help him move the pieces of furniture in a new apartment. Free beer and pizza after 5 hours of working in a warm temperature. I don't have any good Canada day's souvenirs. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE by=dino]<br /> The french don't want the Basques to be a country. If they did they would be helping them. Besides aren't the Basques actually have origin were they are from. Not Quebecers. That's why people like Gilles Duceppe have such a hard time convincing natives that Quebec needs to be a country because they simply reply what right do you have to break apart the country? Because you didn't like how history turned out and that it wasn't fair what happened to you from the evil British? They didn't either but they've moved on!! (You and your separatists friends could learn something from natives across this land.)[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What do you have against the french speakers all the time ? The French are in majority for Basque's independence even if it will "break apart" their country like you say. <br /> <br /> Learn something from the natives ? They are all getting exterminated. They are in narrow reserves, they are paid by the gov. without working. "La meilleure façon de tuer un homme c'est de le payer à ne rien faire." Felix Leclerc ( The best way to kill a man is by paying him to do nothing. ).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE] Unlike Quebec seperatists the Basques actually have a majority of there people supporting them.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We will see if we are a majority or not in a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the PQ will be elected, more than 70% are not satisfied of Charest, many federalists regretted having voted for him. Then Landry will do another referendum, he said it.

[lesouris]

I am so sick and tired about all of this bickering about Quebec sovereignty! Listen everyone: if Quebecois want it, it will happen; if they don't, it won't. Welcome to a democratic society where you will win some battles and loose others - get used to it.<br /> <br /> I hardly see how the Basque struggle for independence is anything like that of Quebec. I mean, the Basques lived how many years under Franco's repressive regime? The FLQ might have been violent, but they look like school yard bullies when compared to ETA and other violent Basque groups.<br /> <br /> Now I realize that it is a tad hypocritical for the government of France to support separatism in Quebec (which I don't think they officially do, nor really care about anymore) while they repress separatist movements in Corsica, the Basqueland, Brittany, Alsace, French Polynesia, et cetera. Does it really matter though? So a country's policies are hypocritical - we live right next door to the US, we should be used to it by now.<br /> <br /> Can't we learn to see eye-to-eye on this issue even once? Have any of you ever seriously looked at this issue from both sides? Separatists and Federalists see things differently, and people on both sides need to start feeling a little more empathetic and understanding about this. How can you possibly have an intelligent conversation about this issue if even the smallest word (like "distinct" for instance) means different things to the different sides?<br /> <br /> As a democratic socialist, I can really empathize with separatists. I mean, they tend to be generally left-leaning (much more so than mainstream Canadians from the RoC), and I can understand that these separatists can get so frustrated living in a country where the majority of the people tend to be more centrist and right-leaning. However, as a democratic socialist in the RoC, I am a little saddened and resentful that these people who share so much common ideology with me, and who I've fought along with in many political battles, just abandon me and people like me in the RoC to find shelter in small NDP enclaves throughout the country. I'm even jealous that Quebecois have the option to leave and form their own progressive society. Of course I realize that there are other issues involved in this debate, but that's just what I see as the biggest issue to overcome.<br /> <br /> Also look at separatism in a historical context: it has made us fundementally a better country because it forced us to re-evaluate ourselves. What is Canadian people always ask. Before the separatist movement began, this was rigidly defined. Now, being Canadian is being whoever you happen to be so long as you live in Canada. Is that such a bad thing? Not at all. Separatism was a blessing in disguise to us. Quebec nationalism made us realize that Canadian nationalism is really whatever you interpret it to be; there are no wrong answers anymore. And that was worth it I think.

[CanuckinOZ]

I'm tired of hearing you whine<br /> <br /> wa wa i'm oppresed<br /> <br /> wa wa i'm not a happy canadian, who the hell is right about now, with a runaway govt who doen't seem to want to listen to the public, and donkeys like ur self proclaiming that Quebec as a province is unhappy to be part of Canada, bugger off!<br /> <br /> we don't want you, if the rest of Canada could have voted in the last referendum, it probably would have told u to bugger off, cause we are tired of hearing about your plight every 10 years or so<br /> <br /> you are more than happy to take money from the western provinces, and accept donations and help every time u start to freeze ur butts off in the winter, but as soon as the thaw comes, the "what about me" syndrome starts<br /> <br /> as for the comments about continuing using Canadian currency, passports etc. I don't think you realise, trade would effectively cease with the rest of Canada(at least with the western provinces) if Quebec ever succeeded in a separation, as well as the stop to supplying you with currency, make ur own, if you think you are so unique, and with that i'm pretty sure there would be a boycott of that currency in any of the other provinces<br /> <br /> this is an old line but i'm bring it up anyway, you boast that 33% of the population of canada lived in quebec way back when, then take ur part of the debt when you separate too!<br /> <br /> you are also more than happy to come out west, be supported by the western economy during the summer, but when summers over you scurry back to the hole u came from <br /> <br /> screw that, sustain yourself effectively within your own province and then come to the table with the idea of a separation, until that point sit down and shut up<br /> <br />

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= CanuckinOZ] ... jack asses like ur self proclaiming that Quebec as a province is unhappy to be part of Canada, bugger off!<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Your post may have had a greater impact on the "'Canada better off without Québec" thread. <br /> But this thread is not so bad if all one can do is jerk off on pent up anger.