[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Rural] Recently saw a bit (on national TV) that said that China and the US were fighting to see who could invest (and presumably control to some extent) in the Alberta oil sands projects. Given that the POTENTAL reserves here are greater than all the Arab nations this becomes very scary. Are we going to protect our own natural resources or let the “communists” or the “empire builders” do so. I know next to nothing about the arrangement between Ottawa and Alberta on oil profits but do know that Alberta has a ever growing surplus, this was in part the ammunition that the east coast used to make their point on oil revenues from the Atlantic. It seems that we should be (almost at all costs) retaining ownership and control on the largest (or very nearly so) oil reserves in the world within Canada and there could even be a case for Federal investment by some type of transfer payments or deferral (but for the fact that they are bound to F..K it up some how). But wait….. maybe we should sell it to the US so that they do not decide that Alberta is conspiring against them or being “downtrodden” by Canada and invade to “save” them! Cynical, me? YEA! <br /> Canada has a major advantage over many other nations, it is called “natural resources” , Fresh Water, Timber, Metal ores, Oil and yes, Diamonds to name but a few. We must protect these resources, control their extraction, and protect the land for future generations. We cannot do this it other countries and or offshore corporations control this resource, this would really piss of our neighbors to the south but it is time to play hardball with those who would “steal”` our heritage. Much of this “deep integration” talk is, I am sure” taking place with a greedy eye on our oil, water & timber reserves……..why else would the big boys bother?<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Money, why else?

[Milton]

Alberta charges very little in the way of royalties, ( about 1%), and gives overly generous tax write offs and exemptions so that dick all is collected from the energy firms at tax time. But this is not enough for the robber barons! Now they have legislation called "Foriegn Worker Replacement" whereby they can avoid hiring Canadians. Instead they will bring in Mexicans or anybody else who will work for next to nothing. The federal and provincial government are responsible for this rip off. Alberta also has "Division 8" legislation which trashes the labor laws on the mega projects. This is what happens when Liberals and Conservatives are the governing bodies. They give away the mine and the public get the shaft.

[Spud]

We have to kick everyone out,and take over all oil and gas production.Companies get 1% for profit,the rest goes to Bank of Canada for pensions, health care etc. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[lis2005]

In 10 years it's not gonna matter anyway!!<br /> <br /> Click on the link - it's long but very interesting!<br /> <br /> http://www.kunstler.com/spch_hudson.htm

[Milton]

I don't understand why people keep saying that the hydrogen economy will never happen. You don't need fuel cells to produce hydrogen! The great thing about hydrogen is that when you burn it you get two by products, heat and water. You can get the hydrogen from splitting water by electrolysis. So you have a regenerative cycle whereby you recreate the fuel source (water) by burning the the fuel (hydrogen).The hydrogen is not lost, unlike carbon based fuels where the carbon hydrogen oxygen bonds are broken and toxic gases are created.<br /> However, and here is the real lowdown as to why the hydrogen economy is continuously reported to be unworkable, the robber barons will not be able to claim scarcity. Windmills would generate the electricity which would split the water into hydrogen and oxygen and the hydrogen would be burnt and recombine with oxygen to make water. Perpetual energy of a sort. This is what is not liked by the ruling class. How can you continue to claim that there is not enough to go around when your energy source is derived from wind and water?

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Milton] I don't understand why people keep saying that the hydrogen economy will never happen. You don't need fuel cells to produce hydrogen! The great thing about hydrogen is that when you burn it you get two by products, heat and water. You can get the hydrogen from splitting water by electrolysis. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It's not quite that simple, Milton. Don't think of Hydrogen as an energy source, think of it like a rechargable battery. Electrolosis takes electricity, and converts it to hydrogen. That process also has it's byproducts because pure water does not conduct electricity. It's the impurities in water that conduct electricity. Salt water conducts electricity better than fresh water. If you use salt as the conductor for electrolosis, then the byproducts are dissolved chlorine and sodium metal (if my memory serves) - both very dangerous. It's the common way household bleach is made.<br /> <br /> If we took all our electrical production for electrolosis, we couldn't produce enough hydrogen to compensate for our hydrocarbon consumption. We need to ramp up hydrogen production, but it will take time.<br /> <br /> Right now, the best way to produce hydrogen is to catalyze another substance to get it. A Catalyst is a compound that will split another compound into it's elemental components simply by being in it's presence. Hydrogen peroxide, for example, will split into hydrogen and water vapour just by adding a small amount of calcium carbide. But producing hydrogen peroxide ain't easy. Right now, the easiest way to get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas.<br /> <br /> But, there is some progress on catalyzing alcohol to hydrogen. Grow corn, make alcohol, run a fuel cell! Much cheaper than millions of wind turbines.<br /> <br /> http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/2/6<br /> http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Area_of_Interest/Chemistry/Materials_Science/Energy_Source_Materials/Tutorial.html<br />

[Brother Jonathan]

Quite right, Dr Caleb. Another possibility is reacting waste aluminum (e.g. cans, foil, &c.) with water, using lye as the catalyst — this would produce hydrogen gas and heat, which could be useful in power plant applications.

[lis2005]

I think the main reason why he says there will never be a Hydrogen economy is simply because our demand for energy outweighs the supply of that energy. Keep in mind too - that none of us have ever really lived in a O & G free society -- and by the time I think we all get desperate enough to absolutely need a hydrogen economy most of us won't be able to afford to convert our cars to hydrogen? Is that even possible to do that? I am not sure - but I can tell you this much too - Oil makes people rich - would Hydrogen make people rich? Because if it did, then I could see it happen.

[Milton]

Corn requires fertilizer, and all sorts of other oil inputs. So lets not go that way cause it aint possible without huge amounts of oil. <br /> Yes cars can be converted to run on hydrogen. <br /> By products of hydrogen production are benign compared to those of the petrochemical industry.<br /> And yes, the reason hydrogen is not being produced by electrolysis is precisely because the robber barons can't control it or claim scarcity of raw materials. Of course windmills would be a big initial cost but nowhere near as expensive or polluting as petrochemical infrastructure. <br /> The con game of economics would have to change to take into account the new "more than enough to go around" scenario.

[lis2005]

I think the speech is a little ominous - but living in a small town in Alberta, and seeing the effects the Oil and Gas Industry has had on this town - I think that getting back to the basics will be a welcome change.

[The Red Dwarf]

My big fear when we run out of oil is not the loss of energy, we can replace it if we relly need too. but the loss of the way to make plastics! look around your room and imagen everthing made of plastic in it gone. scary eh?

[Armageddon]

Eh, what I'm more worried about is what would happen if the oil in Alberta is gone. It is what feeds and helps my province grow.<br /> Anyways, hydrogen cars, I think, wouldn't be hard to produce more. You already have states like Japan and those in Europe designing and producing them, since they don't want to pay higher gas prices anymore. <br /> I even remember seeing a hydrogen BMW in a German cultural video during German 10 last year, and even before that, I had read, and heard, that there were two cities from Germany and Italy where they converted their bus fleets into hydrogen buses.

[JBG]

Perturbed wrote:

It seems that we should be (almost at all costs) retaining ownership and control on the largest (or very nearly so) oil reserves in the world within Canada and there could even be a case for Federal investment by some type of transfer payments or deferral (but for the fact that they are bound to F..K it up some how). But wait….. maybe we should sell it to the US so that they do not decide that Alberta is conspiring against them or being “downtrodden” by Canada and invade to “save” them! Cynical, me? YEA!

Why not just trust the free market? Unless giving the Arabs money is what you love to do.

[herbie]

Same free market that tells us fuel cells are 15 years in the future for the last 20 years and thinks we're all so dumb we forgot they powered Apollos to the moon FORTY YEARS AGO.
The free market is shit. It's there to make money not to innovate.

[DrCaleb]

JBG wrote:

Perturbed wrote:

It seems that we should be (almost at all costs) retaining ownership and control on the largest (or very nearly so) oil reserves in the world within Canada and there could even be a case for Federal investment by some type of transfer payments or deferral (but for the fact that they are bound to F..K it up some how). But wait….. maybe we should sell it to the US so that they do not decide that Alberta is conspiring against them or being “downtrodden” by Canada and invade to “save” them! Cynical, me? YEA!

Why not just trust the free market? Unless giving the Arabs money is what you love to do.

Perturbed got banned about 5 years ago, so don't expect a reply. And, we are Canadian, we don't give Arabs money - we are their competition.

Good necro too.