[Bryan of StA]

Interesting point, but I for one do not see how you link your opinions with unions in general.<br /> <br /> As to your opinions you are missing several contextual pieces.<br /> <br /> 1.) Cost of living. A large urbanized area such as New York has a higher cost due to the need to transport basically all needs of life there and because of demand for living spaces. There are no needs of life other than water and air (and many would argue about the qualitiy of either) that occur in New York. The anecdote I like is being happy to only pay 2000 USD/month for a small one bedroom in a high crime part of town.<br /> <br /> 2.) A union has many kinds of members. 71,000 CAN is likely the wage of the senior mechanic, and in terms of an urban Canadian location that is most likely on the average to low end. In terms of a non-urban location, that is very low.<br /> <br /> 3.) Automated systems are not always appropriate. A machine is highly unlikely to stop a turnstile-jumper. For that you need a transit employee. As well, few automated systems handle maintenance work very well, be it unblocking a toilet or mopping up vomit. As for redundant CPUs, they really are of no help when the software is bad. Transit is not manufacturing; you cannot control the conditions enough to automate.<br /> <br /> As an aside, the difference between the 20th Century and the 21st Century is that one has years that start with 19 (with the exception of 1900 and 2000) and one has years that start with 20 (with the exception of 2000 and 2100). That's it (C'est tout). Anything else is fantasy.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] The anecdote I like is being happy to only pay 2000 USD/month for a small one bedroom in a high crime part of town.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That's if you want to live downtown N.Y. You can easily find many affordable living areas around N.Y.<br /> A friend of mine recently moved there and she too found an affordable/nice area to live in.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] 2.) A union has many kinds of members. 71,000 CAN is likely the wage of the senior mechanic, and in terms of an urban Canadian location that is most likely on the average to low end. In terms of a non-urban location, that is very low.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually, that's the wage for a bus driver. A guy get's $71K to drive a bus.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] 3.) Automated systems are not always appropriate. A machine is highly unlikely to stop a turnstile-jumper. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Not if you get rid of the whole turnstile concept and make it into "one-way" doors. Also all of these areas would be monitored via high-definition camera (no fuzzy images). Sure, people will still try and 'shirk/screw' the system, but that's the whole point: Cameras recording nonstop will catch how the system can be thwarted and thus improvements can be implemented.<br /> <br /> You're completely devaluing the fact that for all intents and purposes...computers only *really*<br /> have become *useful* in the past 5-7 years. A low-end desktop computer nowadays can do much more<br /> than say a top of the line-money is no object-system circa 1995.<br /> <br /> I guarantee you this: Don't do to the entire system, but revamp/automate just a section of a subway<br /> system, and the investors would be astonished over how effective such of a system could be. Especially<br /> since nowadays computers are cheap/powerful enough to offer the necessary low-cost dual-redundancy<br /> to ensure %100 percent non-failure that would be needed. <br /> <br /> So even in the event of several catastrophic hardware/software occurences happening, the system would keep on working without even missing a beat. <br /> <br /> I've been using Mac OSX for several years now and have been firmly convinced: Computers can not<br /> only be stable, but highly reliable and rugged enough to handle whatever I throw at it.<br /> <br /> We're entering an age where technology is finally catching up to all the civil engineering concepts<br /> that we only dreamed of. Why not start with the transit system? Computers can easily handle<br /> most of the tasks.

[Bryan of StA]

[QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch] <br /> <br /> That's if you want to live downtown N.Y. You can easily find many affordable living areas around N.Y.<br /> A friend of mine recently moved there and she too found an affordable/nice area to live in.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch] <br /> <br /> Actually, that's the wage for a bus driver. A guy get's $71K to drive a bus.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> “They talk about us making so much money, but the real poverty line in New York for a family of four is about $57,000 [USD]." - http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec20 ... -d21.shtml<br /> <br /> It's a matter of cost of living. Plus, having experienced London traffic, I would hate to be a professional driver in any of the global commerce towns.<br /> <br /> On the note of automation:<br /> <br /> Cameras: Americans have proven loathe to accept any form of monitoring that could infringe on personal freedom, especially when in control of any branch of government. It is possible, and has been done for many years (by the casino industry in Las Vegas most notably, and by English police in London). It is a likely occurance but there needs to be a shift in opinion. If New York was to see a London bombing style event I could see the installation happening very quickly.<br /> <br /> Computers: a computer is nothing without decent software. Automation systems for a non-controlled environment are sketchy at best, fatal at worst. I bring this up because this is an ignored part of how people fit computers into their world picture. No doubt this programing would be bid to a firm without independant review of the software or software/hardware interaction. Computer engineering is still engineering; someone needs to be skilled enough to design and confident enought to put their name on the design.<br /> <br /> I can see this level of automation cropping up, it is just I cannot see it going from concept to reality in any timeframe shorter than another 10 years. On the plus side, this concept has been toyed with by underground mining companies, most notably in the Sudbury area.<br /> <br /> By-the-by, I am a recent GNU/Linux convert, waging a subversive campaign against M$.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] <br /> <br /> That's if you want to live downtown N.Y. You can easily find many affordable living areas around N.Y.<br /> A friend of mine recently moved there and she too found an affordable/nice area to live in.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch] <br /> <br /> Actually, that's the wage for a bus driver. A guy get's $71K to drive a bus.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> “They talk about us making so much money, but the real poverty line in New York for a family of four is about $57,000 [USD]." - http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/dec20 ... -d21.shtml<br /> <br /> It's a matter of cost of living. Plus, having experienced London traffic, I would hate to be a professional driver in any of the global commerce towns.<br /> <br /> On the note of automation:<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] Cameras: Americans have proven loathe to accept any form of monitoring that could infringe on personal freedom, especially when in control of any branch of government. It is possible, and has been done for many years (by the casino industry in Las Vegas most notably, and by English police in London). It is a likely occurance but there needs to be a shift in opinion. If New York was to see a London bombing style event I could see the installation happening very quickly..[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What's your point? I'm not talking (this is where I repeat myself for the third time) about low-res black and white 5fps cameras. What I'm talking about is HIGH-DEF cameras which can enable operators to see in PRISTINE CLARITY all of the terminals they are monitoring. It's very easy (thanks to today's computers) to STREAM high-quality HD encoded signals over virtually any type of network. <br /> <br /> If NASA can remote control rovers on the planet Mars, then we surely can have automated Subway Terminals with High-Quality help/survelliance. Irony is, people will feel more comfortable in such of an environment.<br /> <br /> At best, each terminal would have on-site security, and a part-time (couple times daily) janitorial service). Maintenance would be maybe once per day. <br /> <br /> But some guy planting his ass at some kiosk handing out tokens? Forget it.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] Computers: a computer is nothing without decent software. Automation systems for a non-controlled environment are sketchy at best, fatal at worst. I bring this up because this is an ignored part of how people fit computers into their world picture. No doubt this programing would be bid to a firm without independant review of the software or software/hardware interaction. Computer engineering is still engineering; someone needs to be skilled enough to design and confident enought to put their name on the design.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What's your point? People have been trusting elevators and escalators for decades now. Why are you saying that a terminal that accepts tokens/operates door can kill someone? <br /> <br /> Only people who know nothing about computers can make an assumption like that.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] I can see this level of automation cropping up, it is just I cannot see it going from concept to reality in any timeframe shorter than another 10 years. On the plus side, this concept has been toyed with by underground mining companies, most notably in the Sudbury area.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Once the FINANCIAL figures come in proving that robots can do not only dangerous/phsyically demanding tasks, but also repeat them to perfection everytime.<br /> <br /> How are Labour Unions going to compete against that? Unionize robots???<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Bryan of StA] By-the-by, I am a recent GNU/Linux convert, waging a subversive campaign against M$.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You're completely and absolutely wasting your time. If you want to 'wage war', then make Linux easier to use. "Ubuntu" was claimed as the 'friendlier' of Unix variants and quite frankly IT SUCKS!<br /> <br /> Until the Linux community can get themselves rallied behind a common goal (Like Apple and Microsoft does), the CONSUMER market will *never* take Linux seriously. Linux will become the 'Beta' of the industry, it'll have back-end uses, but will be met with natural resistance from consumers (the real deal).<br /> <br /> You'll never beat WinXP for the sole fact that Windows is actually a GOOD OPERATING SYSTEM. Yeah, I much prefer OSX (I use all the time) however I'm not going to bash WinXP for the sake of it. It's lightyears ahead of Win98, and is good enough for the majority of users.<br /> <br /> And don't even start with "Well Windows this, and Windows that" bullcrap. <br /> <br /> Just try and get a downloaded Linux program to work on a Linux system without having to deal with the gazillion 'flavours' of Linux.<br /> <br /> Linux is a sad case of lacking direction.<br />

[Guest]

One last thing.<br /> <br /> You seriously think the Union is going to gain any respect from the public? Especially walking to work in sub-zero weather? <br /> <br /> Not to mention the strike is an ILLEGAL strike.<br /> <br /> As if you or anyone cares, then again...who here reading this is in New York. <br /> <br /> Always easy to 'comment' when you're far from the noise.

[Rural]

Dont know about the NY transt union but on union and strikes in general I offer the following observations:-<br /> <br /> If you can afford to go on strike for several weeks or months then you are far better of than many families and should be gratefull that you have better than average compensation.<br /> <br /> If you are so dissatisfied with your compensation or working conditions its time to go out and find annother job and make an opening for someone who would be pleased to have your job.<br /> <br /> In most cases the union negotiators who cannot come to an agreement with the employers on your behalf are being paid (often more than you were before going on strike) whilst you are not. What pressure is on them to be reasonable, they get paid to be confrontable.<br /> <br /> The cost of your excessive demands will be passed along to the consumer of your particular product or service which you (with your new found raise) may be able to afford but many consumers may not. Eventualy you will negoticiate yourselves out of a job.<br /> <br /> Finaly, there are exceptions to the above but they are becoming increasingly rare, I put big unions and big corporations in the same basket. They both have little regard to the individual its all about cash and control.<br />

[Bryan of StA]

Will the union in question gain respect or sympathy? No. Do they have it now anyway? Certainly not. Nothing to lose in that regard then.<br /> <br /> I question the designation of transit as a critical service. It is vital to efficient running of a city of that size, but it is still a privelage and not a right to have a public mass transit system. Same as it is a privelage to have a drivers license. Making it illegal for a group who supplies a convienience service is a move of governmental interferance.<br /> <br /> This strike is not likely to last many more days I feel. The point has been made. The MTA yearly surplus has been wiped out already. Maybe both sides can negotiate this fairly.<br /> <br /> The negotiators and business managers still have to submit proposals before the general membership. This is not a president decrees to the masses scenario, this is the masses dictate the actions of the negotiator.<br /> <br /> As to big unions/big corporations I agree with Rabble. Unfortunatly they have to exist, as a union's power to negotiate is based upon the size of its membership, and a corporation's power is based upon the size of its business.

[Milton]

Funny how Rabblewatch can espouse privatisation of a monopoly because the workers have their own monopoly as well (union). It is ok that the oil companies price their products in lock step (no collusion here!) and therefore cause massive cost of living increases that the working class are expected to swallow without wincing. Everything is interconnected and affects everything else. So by your logic we should revoke the charters of all corporations whose executives got remuneration increases in excess of the 3% to 5% per year that union members would be lucky to get.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Milton] Funny how Rabblewatch can espouse privatisation of a monopoly because the workers have their own monopoly as well (union). It is ok that the oil companies price their products in lock step (no collusion here!) and therefore cause massive cost of living increases that the working class are expected to swallow without wincing. Everything is interconnected and affects everything else. So by your logic we should revoke the charters of all corporations whose executives got remuneration increases in excess of the 3% to 5% per year that union members would be lucky to get.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Buddy, if you have any proof/evidence that companies are working as a monopoly and thus violating the anti-trust laws...be my guest to file the grievance.<br /> <br /> Until then, you seriously don't know what you are talking about. Oil is cheaper now than it was circa the 70's.<br /> <br /> Your observations have no insight, nor proportionality. Just a lot of crap.<br />

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> Buddy, if you have any proof/evidence that companies are working as a monopoly and thus violating the anti-trust laws...be my guest to file the grievance.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Since Oil and Petrolium products are a resource that is required for our economy to work, it is by definition a monopoly. If anyone could find evidence of collusion or price fixing, then oil companies are not doing their work very well.<br /> <br /> Show me the relationship between the price at the pump and the cost of production. You will find your anti-trust evidence there. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> Until then, you seriously don't know what you are talking about. Oil is cheaper now than it was circa the 70's.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It is? Based on what? The inflationary value of the dollar? Since inflation is partly based on the price of oil, I seriously doubt you'll find anyone who takes that claim based on circular reasoning seriously.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> Your observations have no insight, nor proportionality. Just a lot of crap.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Pretty much describes your posts. Milton demonstrates he's got a great deal more insight that you, for much longer than you, and doesn't need to hurl insults when his arguments crumble.<br /> <br /> Speaking of which, wasn't this topic about "Unions"? Let's get it back on track, shall we?

[Brent Swain]

How many New Yorkers were paying their bus fares with either Union wages , or wages that were high enough to afford bus fare ,thanks to unions having raised the standard. Without Unions , many would be so low paid that they couldn't afford to take a bus, or have enough spending power to support the economy that makes mass transit neccessary ,or for that matter ,viable.<br /> Multi billionairs who would benefit from lack of unions don't tend to take the bus.<br /> There are plenty of fascist states that people who don't believe in the freedom of people to bargain collectively are free to move to, and enjoy the higher overall quality of life that results. Take along a bulletproof vest and hire an armed guard to escort your kids to school.<br /> Brent<br /> Brent Swain

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb]Show me the relationship between the price at the pump and the cost of production. You will find your anti-trust evidence there. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Buddy, the burden of proof is on the one that makes the accusation (you in this case). I don't have to prove jack.<br /> <br /> Note to Dr. Caleb: Stay away from giving legal advice, you'd SUCK as a paralegal.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Dr. Caleb]<br /> It is? Based on what? The inflationary value of the dollar? Since inflation is partly based on the price of oil, I seriously doubt you'll find anyone who takes that claim based on circular reasoning seriously.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> *yawn*<br /> <br /> <a href="http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oil_prices.png">here</a><br /> <br /> Not just wiki, every single website has this same data (inflation factored in).<br /> <br /> Why don't you do some research before blathering your yap off? Oops, sorry...that's not how Liberals get their info: THEY JUST MAKE IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Dr. Caleb]Speaking of which, wasn't this topic about "Unions"? Let's get it back on track, shall we?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Unions suck. Ontario's Toyota car manufacturing plant basically told the UAW to 'get lost'<br /> <br /> http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0504/08/C02-143976.htm<br /> <br /> I wonder why? Could it be that everyone including their dog realizes that UNIONS ARE DEATH?<br /> <br /> You can cite historical (read: ancient) anecdotes over when Unions were needed...but you will find it difficult to muster any rational excuse why Unions should be around today. <br /> <br /> Also, with such of a growing diverse job market in which virtually anyone can start their own company with a basic company registration form...WHAT GOOD ARE UNIONS FOR?????<br /> <br /> The 21st century's job market will be that of specialization. The whole 'one size fits all' approach is stupid. Freelancers will be able to create whole new markets and thus do what Unions are unable to do: GROW WITH THE TIMES.<br /> <br />

[Milton]

Unions have to grow. They have to remember what the ideas behind unions were. Namely to wrest power from the robber barons and there lackeys, (you know, the guys who say there is nothing wrong with society today except for the people who won't stop complaining and ought to be grateful that they are allowed to live in this free society where you should shut up unless you want to sing praises to the rich and powerful). The ordinary common run of the mill working person should remember that if enough of us say that we are all equal and all deserve a healthy life, (you fill in the definition of a healthy life), then that is the way it will be. We don't have to honor the deeds or contracts or treaties which were hoodwinked in place by the gangsters. <br /> We can rewrite (reright/rerite) the whole social system. Who needs millionaires and billionaires? Not me! What did they ever do for anyone? Ernest Schumacher (Small is Beautiful author) once said that he had a list of 500 people who he would like to have put on a rocket ship to be fired at the sun. His contention was that they were stopping the human race from being a success ( and I will leave it to you to define what success would entail).<br /> The title of this thread should have been "Unions have to go hard".

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Milton] Who needs millionaires and billionaires? Not me! What did they ever do for anyone? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I dunno, drive society? Push standards? Enforce the free market and thus a chance for everyone to prosper?<br /> <br /> As much as everyone hates Bill Gates, he's done his lion's share for humanity by standardizing the operating system for computers, so that everyone can use it (Windows), to helping third-world countries get vitamis and they won't starve to death. <br /> <br /> Also, Gates is very active in pushing for CURES.<br /> <br /> Sure, people will jump in now and bitch about Windows...but seriously...Apple had NO INTEREST in licensing out the Mac OS for 'the rest of us', and Linux? GIVE ME A BREAK!<br /> <br /> LINUX IS A JOKE.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Milton]The title of this thread should have been "Unions have to go hard". [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I've dealt with the unions on many occasions. They are a deceitful/backstabbing lot. They basically are only out for their own selfish interests and they have always been against technology.<br /> <br /> I'm working freelance as a result of this, I was offered to join the Union...however when they read me the list of 'restrictions' I basically said "screw it".<br /> <br /> If Unions had it their way...we'd still be living in an early 20th century mentality. <br /> <br /> Technology historically has always caused Unions to lost their jobs or to render jobs innefective (this angers unions). The past was replete with workers rioting and smashing the machines to save their jobs.<br /> <br /> That's how petty and stupid Unions have become.<br /> <br /> I've dedicated my career to breaking Unions through enabling the individual. When you can teach someone to become independent and self-reliant...they quickly lose interest in giving up that independence towards Union control.<br /> <br /> "Unions have to go hard", this I agree. They have to CRASH AND BURN.

[Brent Swain]

Free trade has drastically widened the gap between rich and poor, creating far more millionairs and far more desperately homeless.Homelessness in Canada was a non issue before free trade, or hasn't anybody noticed.Toronto wasn't a shooting gallery before free trade created the disparity between rich and poor, or hasn't anybody noticed.<br /> One would have to be incredibly dense to suggest that we can improve the quality of life in Canada by continueing down a road that has so greatly widened the gap between rich and poor.<br /> 95% of the jobs in Canada are created by small family owned businesses , so why pay taxpayer funded welfare to the super rich foreign owned corporations when all they do is automate existing jobs out of existence.<br /> Mussolini defined fascism as an alliance between business and corporations. During WW2 the Canadian government used to pay us to shoot people who supported that attitude.<br /> Brent