[Calumny]

And your point is?

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] And your point is?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> It will eventually happen here.

[Calumny]

And your point is?

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] And your point is?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I posted this article so people could read it. Stop playing dumb.

[Calumny]

No, Perturbed. <br /> <br /> You posted this because it something in it struck home with you.<br /> <br /> So, what is it and what's your point?<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] No, Perturbed. <br /> <br /> You posted this because it something in it struck home with you.<br /> <br /> So, what is it and what's your point?<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Fine, give me a hard time. I'm naturally interested in politics around the world, and I was wondering if anyone else thinks the sentiment of restricting immigration will come to Canada. Muleoney tripled it to 250,000 a year. Currently, only the lunatic Conservatives oppose mass immigration, with the NDP, Liberals and Bloq pretty well supporting it.<br /> <br /> The reason I raise the possibility is I stopped and thought about it, and realized that although people are mostly nice, there are competing cultural interests in Canada. I realize that people who don't live in Toronto, Vancounver, Montreal, Calgary or Edmonton will probably wonder what the hell I mean, but I can honestly tell you that people of European descent are the invisible majority in places like Toronto. I grew up loving multiculturalism, playing with different races as a kid and all that, but I've seen Toronto change so quickly over the last 10-15 years that I'm having second thoughts about it. I barely recognize the place. It's changed SO fast it's a bit creepy. I grew up a proud Canadian, loving Toronto because it was my home, disliking people from the rest of Canada for pointlessly hating Toronto, but now the place leaves me cold. It's not as obsessed with America as it was 10 year ago, but it has no soul whatsoever. It's torn down almost all of its Britsh architecture, and worships New York style crap architecture. It has multiculturalism like New York times 10.<br /> <br /> In practice, people have to assimilate to get a job anway. We have massive unemplyment in the skilled fields, so why are we bringing in a massive 250,000 well-trained foreigners for jobs that don't exist? To drive taxis? So the banks can lend more money? It's crazy when you stop and think about it, but we're so poltically correct no one has the nerve to question it except the radical right.

[Calumny]

Okay, so why didn't you say that in the first place?<br /> <br /> I've been extremely dubious about the actual reasons for our relatively high immigration levels for quite some time. I've also been somewhat dubious about the sources of much of our immigration.<br /> <br /> I know we're given the 'need immigration to offset the declining population' line, which may or may not have some validity. <br /> <br /> However, given the relatively high unemployment numbers across Canada for the past many years, much of what is said doesn't make sense to me.<br /> <br /> To some degree, I see immigration as a conscious attempt to keep unemployment figures at a certain level, and in doing so undermine organized labor.<br /> <br /> On the other hand, I tend to wonder whether immigration my be used in a rather cynical fashion to deal with the government's inability to handle issues concerning our own population, e.g., allow immigrants in to work and pay taxes to support deadbeat Canadians.<br /> <br /> The only reason I say this is that I live in a town where you sometimes hear the erroneous belief about the 'immigrants that come to Canada and go on welfare'. The rather amusing part about this is that you often hear comments about 50% of the town being on welfare etc., and the town is about 99% white Canadians.<br /> <br /> I really don't care what country immigrants come from, or what their color, religion, etc. is because my main concern is with the person, e.g., assholes come in assorted colors and varieties. <br /> <br /> I do care about whether the values held by immigrants align to those most Canadians believe are important, e.g., social safety net, etc.<br /> <br /> So, I do have some concern when immigration figures indicate a majority of immigrants in recent years come from nations that can in some cases be typified as rabidly capitalist in nature. Not everyone may see that as problem however, it causes me some concern.<br /> <br /> I grew up in Toronto myself. It was pretty multi-cultural at the time, or at least the Annex where I lived was, and the majority of my friends were non-caucasian. <br /> <br /> But, given the fact more than 50% of Canadian immigrants each year end up in Ontario, with probably 49% of that being in Toronto, I can well understand many of the feelings you express. In a perfect world, we'd all just naturally get along and accept each other's differences however, this isn't a perfect world. Not all cultures do things the same way and the differences can sometimes be annoying. Dump a whole bunch of people who do things differently right beside each other in a relatively short period of time and yeah, you're asking for trouble.<br /> <br /> I do have some difficulty with the notion that Canadian traditions should be 'changed' in any respect to avoid the possibility of offense to newcomers, if only because I wouldn't ask the same if I immigrated elsewhere nor would it be likely most nations would accomodate my wishes if I did. I have serious difficulties with Shar'ia law types of concepts being instituted within Canadian society. <br /> <br /> I have a pretty good idea of how you feel, Perturbed. Are you surprised?<br /> <br /> Of course, I can't resist pointing out that it's your strongly centralized representative government that got us here. <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Spud]

The country is already overpopulated.How are we supposed to save the enviroment when the population keeps exploding?<br /> I agree also about the idea of keeping unemployment at a certain level.The government does not bring these people in to be nice.They do have an ulterial motive.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] Okay, so why didn't you say that in the first place?<br /> <br /> I've been extremely dubious about the actual reasons for our relatively high immigration levels for quite some time. I've also been somewhat dubious about the sources of much of our immigration.<br /> <br /> I know we're given the 'need immigration to offset the declining population' line, which may or may not have some validity. <br /> <br /> However, given the relatively high unemployment numbers across Canada for the past many years, much of what is said doesn't make sense to me.<br /> <br /> To some degree, I see immigration as a conscious attempt to keep unemployment figures at a certain level, and in doing so undermine organized labor.<br /> <br /> On the other hand, I tend to wonder whether immigration my be used in a rather cynical fashion to deal with the government's inability to handle issues concerning our own population, e.g., allow immigrants in to work and pay taxes to support deadbeat Canadians.<br /> <br /> The only reason I say this is that I live in a town where you sometimes hear the erroneous belief about the 'immigrants that come to Canada and go on welfare'. The rather amusing part about this is that you often hear comments about 50% of the town being on welfare etc., and the town is about 99% white Canadians.<br /> <br /> I really don't care what country immigrants come from, or what their color, religion, etc. is because my main concern is with the person, e.g., assholes come in assorted colors and varieties. <br /> <br /> I do care about whether the values held by immigrants align to those most Canadians believe are important, e.g., social safety net, etc.<br /> <br /> So, I do have some concern when immigration figures indicate a majority of immigrants in recent years come from nations that can in some cases be typified as rabidly capitalist in nature. Not everyone may see that as problem however, it causes me some concern.<br /> <br /> I grew up in Toronto myself. It was pretty multi-cultural at the time, or at least the Annex where I lived was, and the majority of my friends were non-caucasian. <br /> <br /> But, given the fact more than 50% of Canadian immigrants each year end up in Ontario, with probably 49% of that being in Toronto, I can well understand many of the feelings you express. In a perfect world, we'd all just naturally get along and accept each other's differences however, this isn't a perfect world. Not all cultures do things the same way and the differences can sometimes be annoying. Dump a whole bunch of people who do things differently right beside each other in a relatively short period of time and yeah, you're asking for trouble.<br /> <br /> I do have some difficulty with the notion that Canadian traditions should be 'changed' in any respect to avoid the possibility of offense to newcomers, if only because I wouldn't ask the same if I immigrated elsewhere nor would it be likely most nations would accomodate my wishes if I did. I have serious difficulties with Shar'ia law types of concepts being instituted within Canadian society. <br /> <br /> I have a pretty good idea of how you feel, Perturbed. Are you surprised?<br /> <br /> Of course, I can't resist pointing out that it's your strongly centralized representative government that got us here. <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I didn't say it in the firts place because many people will bite your head off when you talk about these things.<br /> <br /> It is worth noting that Mulroney tripled immigration to 250,000. The Liberals just reported that number, saying it "added to our cultural mosaic." I simply can't by the B.S. anymore. Races still compete more than they inter-marry. As for the Annex area, it has become much more expensive housing wise, but there are a lot of apartments in the area as well...<br /> <br /> Obviously, people do assimilate eventually, so it isn't multiculturalism in practice, but when we bring in people from dog-eat-dog societies, they can't help but be shrewd.<br /> <br /> The most criminal thing is that we're bringing in 250,000 people with professional degrees, where there is already high unemployment. What we really need are skilled tradesmen.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Spud] The country is already overpopulated.How are we supposed to save the enviroment when the population keeps exploding?<br /> I agree also about the idea of keeping unemployment at a certain level.The government does not bring these people in to be nice.They do have an ulterial motive. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I don't think we're overpopulated, I think we're underpopulated. We can grow food in greenshouse to support hundreds of millions of people....I think we simply have an economic system that doesn't give people a chance.<br /> <br /> We still do have a shortage of young people, if not people in general. It's a society-wide problem that immigration won't solve. Only an economic system with incentives to work and raise kids will increase ourbirth rate IMO.<br /> <br /> Your opinion is 100% valid if you want a more spacious country, but considering tiny places like Romania also have 30 million people....but they're poor I know. Now I'm confused...<img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'><br /> <br /> Regarding ulterior motives, that's quite possible but personally I would never underestimate the possibility that our government actually is that stupid.... <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/idea.gif' alt='Idea'> immigrants vote liberal.

[FootPrints]

This might be a liitle off topic, but it is about immgrants. I work in the construction industry and with people of all races. I am the minority here, being a white woman in this trade. <br /> Coming from a small town, this was a whole new world to me. I won't try to hide the fact that I had a pre-conceived notion of people in the trades. I was wrong. I have met wonderful people, SMART, friendly. Infact, I have conversations with them about things at Vive that I could never have with people where I live.<br /> I always ask where they are from, what it's like etc.. <br /> The majority are not in the unions, I don't know if they are here legally. But one thing I do know is 80% of them are not here to stay. They don't like it here. They say it is too expensive, people are always on the go, they are here to work, save money, and go back home to live a better life. They think I am crazy to stay.<br /> One young couple work 7 days a week, because they are not in the union, they make just over half of what I do.<br /> They recently bought land back home in Hungary, and can't wait to go back.<br /> An Iranian has degrees in a few different things, I asked him what he was doing on construction site. He told me he would have to go back to school here, and re-do everything. Isn't it just some kind of test he would have to take to become familiar with our regulations? I'm sure it would be years of schooling.<br /> Most of them are grossly underpaid, they are taken advantage of, especially if they are new and don't know the rates. This industry is making a fortune off them.<br /> I know there are some who might say they are taking jobs, etc...<br /> But I like them, and I'll be sorry to see them go.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= FootPrints] This might be a liitle off topic, but it is about immgrants. I work in the construction industry and with people of all races. I am the minority here, being a white woman in this trade. <br /> Coming from a small town, this was a whole new world to me. I won't try to hide the fact that I had a pre-conceived notion of people in the trades. I was wrong. I have met wonderful people, SMART, friendly. Infact, I have conversations with them about things at Vive that I could never have with people where I live.<br /> I always ask where they are from, what it's like etc.. <br /> The majority are not in the unions, I don't know if they are here legally. But one thing I do know is 80% of them are not here to stay. They don't like it here. They say it is too expensive, people are always on the go, they are here to work, save money, and go back home to live a better life. They think I am crazy to stay.<br /> One young couple work 7 days a week, because they are not in the union, they make just over half of what I do.<br /> They recently bought land back home in Hungary, and can't wait to go back.<br /> An Iranian has degrees in a few different things, I asked him what he was doing on construction site. He told me he would have to go back to school here, and re-do everything. Isn't it just some kind of test he would have to take to become familiar with our regulations? I'm sure it would be years of schooling.<br /> Most of them are grossly underpaid, they are taken advantage of, especially if they are new and don't know the rates. This industry is making a fortune off them.<br /> I know there are some who might say they are taking jobs, etc...<br /> But I like them, and I'll be sorry to see them go. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> This was discussed in the Dominion Paper IIRC in an article called "Multiculturalism, it hurts us all." It talked about how all building contractors rely on illegal immigrants. This hurts the immigrants, with lower pay and security, and also deprives Canada of taxes and jobs for Canadian citizens.....I realize many Canadian citizens refuse to work in construction, but I think Canada is much less of a land of opportunity than these people think.<br /> <br /> In our neo-liberal economics system, immigrants don't stand a chance unless they are very shrewd. The idea that they know what they are getting into is ridiculous.....many long-time residents can't find jobs either.<br /> <br /> It still makes me laugh we are bringing in professionals when there are no jobs for them, not the trademen who actually find jobs in Canada--under the table that is.<br /> <br /> Canada is expensive, but western Europe is even more expensive....poor countries sure they're cheaper.

[michou]

I have found this link, a 1995 point / counterpoint study of some interest about immigration politics in European and English settler nations.<br /> <br /> Don't let its 100 pages daunt you (just kidding, there are eleven of them), most of them are footnotes and you can always skip the European parts.<br /> <br /> <b><a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3668/is_199501/ai_n8713303">Modes of Immigration Politics in Liberal Democratic States -- comment/reply</a></b>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= michou] I have found this link, a 1995 point / counterpoint study of some interest about immigration politics in European and English settler nations.<br /> <br /> Don't let its 100 pages daunt you (just kidding, there are eleven of them), most of them are footnotes and you can always skip the European parts.<br /> <br /> <b><a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3668/is_199501/ai_n8713303">Modes of Immigration Politics in Liberal Democratic States -- comment/reply</a></b>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Thanks for sharing. I'll read it when I get a chance.