[Reverend Blair]

It's definitely part of the system, Whelan. I also isn't working because torture breeds resentment.

[Dr Caleb]

You want some shocking video? I was speechless at this. Warning: It's bad, and violates pretty much the Geneva Conventions on War. A wounded Iraqi, posing no threat to an Apache pilot is killed in the video.<p> <a href='http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_733943,00050003.htm'>http://www.hindustantimes.com/</a><p> <a href='http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/specials/videos/apache_NEW.wmv'>Video: Right click and "save as..."</a><p>

[Milton]

That was horrible, was that depleted uranium bullets that were used?

[whelan costen]

Yes horrible is an understatement, I read the article but couldn't stomach the idea of watching a video; I really think this is called, conditioning or brainwashing the military to do the dirty work, I just feel for those who have participated as they will have to live with this for ever; not to mention those poor innocent people dragged into this violence simply because they live in the country that someone else wants to control...this really is disgusting!

[Dr Caleb]

Milton, from the damage done to the truck and tractor, I can tell you they were using a 50mm General Electric or Vulcan Cannon. 4200fps muzzle velocity, and from when the cannon fired to when the bullets struck (about .5 to .75 of a second) , the Apache had to be 1 to 1.5 km away. There's no way to tell what type of bullets were used, whether DU or brass casings with floating mercury loads (which are worse IMHO). Ethier way, those farmers didn't hear the chopper, and didn't hear it firing at them.<p> They never had a chance. What brave soldiers they must be, to shoot unarmed famers from so far away.<p>

[4Canada]

That video has been on the internet since December. Or at least that's when I first saw it. And it's taken this long to get to the CBC news yesterday. This torture has been reported on different sights as well and it seems no one takes it seriously and reports it until someone's agenda is timed right. Every war creates monsters. I personally don't know how it can not. If you train someone to be a murderer, (which I consider conditioned insanity), then why be surprised when they act insane? Why isn't our government standing up, (especially now that they have the seat at the UN overseeing human rights issues), and speaking out against these atrocities? I worry about our own soldiers in Afghanistan and what they're doing. We don't hear anything from there or Haiti.

[Reverend Blair]

I worry that our guys will get dragged into this sort of thing too. We really don't want another Somalia.

The Canadian government needs to offer immediate assurances that, given that the US has been torturing people, we will no longer turn prisoners over to them.

We also need to stand up in the UN and condemn not just what's recently become public in Iraq, but all instances of torture and demand that US citizens, military, and leaders be made subject to International law and trials if the US will not put them on open trial themselves. Enough is enough.

It's looking like there's direct proof that Bremer and Rumsfeld knew of the mistreatment of prisoners. To suggest that they knew, but Bush and the rest of his cabinet did not is laughable.

[Milton]

I saw a report on the CBC tonight where a Red Cross representative said they had been laying complaints with the US army for over a year about prisoners not being treated according to the Geneva conventions. The Red Cross rep. said that the US response was that they had not declared war on Iraq and therefore were not necessarily bound by the Geneva conventions. Watching the video of that helicopter attack made me think of computer games and how they are being made to simulate actual combat. You could teach people to operate these killing machines and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Add a little "speed" and you would have a lethal combination.

[Poz]

Milton, I too thought of a video game when I saw the video. I remember when I was younger that some of the arcade games that kids played were either developed or sponsored by the US military, US Navy, and often had their respective slogans. I also remember seeing an ad in a magazine last year for a new computer war game that was developed by the military. This all makes you wonder (or it just hits you square in the face) that the conditioning of the masses for violent acts is taking place. Im not one to think that TV is the cause of our societal problems but these military designed games have to do something to young minds.

[whelan costen]

Well they are good for hand eye coordination, and you do get points for kills, medals for bravery etc. My son had one program which was all about reaching the highest levels, there is also no association about pain and suffering inflicted with these kills. It is very one sided, you only see your side, they are the enemy and you are the victor. I can see some mind games involved here, subliminal messages, heck if they do it for commercials, think how much time you have that kids mind at your disposal, while they master the game!

[just-curious]

No doubt in every war you will find ethical issues, even in World War II. Does that mean we shouldn't have defeated Hitler! Maybe we should have had Chamberlain for another term! you guys snif to many flower, and use to many cheap drugs! Please do me a favor and stop! For the worlds sake and yours! Paul.

[Milton]

just-curious, try to emulate your name, we have enough neo con artists here already. Study some history, see who started world war I and II and all the other wars before, in between and after. Don't think throwing Neville Chamberlain's name around will buy you any brownie points and FYI he was from Great Britain not Canada.

[whelan costen]

Paul, you are way more than just curious...it isn't flowers we're smelling, it's the b.s. when the wind changes...there is a vast difference between Hitler and his will to rule the world and the evil doer Hussein, he only wanted to rule his own country, and in case you haven't heard, he was installed by the U.S., he was aided by the U.S., bin laden was also a CIA operative, funded and aided by friends of Bush and co., the Saudi Royal family.

When the Canadians and then later the U.S. aided in WWII then didn't go in and try to eliminate the people, they really were liberaters. That is why they were greeted with flowers and not AK-47's as in Iraq. Notice the difference.

[canuck]

"...they really were liberaters. " <P> That would be true except for the portions of Germany that are occupied by American military bases.

[whelan costen]

Yes indeed, but the people aren't under U.S. rule, as far as I know and their natural resources aren't controlled by U.S.gov unless of course they have fallen as we have in Canada, to the political process of sell out.