[Dr Caleb]

Yes, we should all mourn the loss.<br /> <br /> But Afghanistan is not pointless. They trained many terrorists. They harbour Osama, and were given a chance to give him up in order to avoid an invasion.<br /> <br /> And the Netherlands does not take women out to the soccer stadium and shoot them in the back of the head in front of a crowd.<br /> <br /> I think is says something that the country responsible for the two biggest wars in the last 100 years, Germany, are in Afghanistan but wanted nothing to do with Iraq.<br />

[wolkoffd]

<i>Yes, we should all mourn the loss.</i><br /> <br /> <i>But Afghanistan is not pointless.</i> <br /> >>>tell that to the Russians...<br /> <br /> <i>They trained many terrorists.</i><br /> >>>One man's terrorist...<br /> Anyway, it's important to get our 'they's straight. (If Bush had done that, we would be living in a much different world today). 'They' (the Afghans) trained no-one, Al Qaeda trained there, among other places. Mostly what they did was run around in the sand...the truly deadly stuff (i.e., planning an attack) was done in Germany and the US.<br /> <br /> <i>They harbour Osama, </i><br /> >>Do they? What evidence do you have of this? For all we know, he is driving a cab in Brooklyn.<br /> ..or Toronto. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br /> <br /> <i>and were given a chance to give him up in order to avoid an invasion.</i><br /> >>actually, this claim is dubious. Bush was intent on invading whether Osama was handed over or not. Also, it is not known if the Taliban leaders had any power to 'hand him over', since their own forces were much weaker than Al Quaeda's. In any case, the CIA had drawn up plans for an invasion long before 9/11.<br /> <br /> <i>And the Netherlands does not take women out to the soccer stadium and shoot them in the back of the head in front of a crowd.</i><br /> >>Not yet, anyway. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> So, what evidence do you have that this occured under the Taliban? (it may well have, but I haven't seen evidence...just lots of propaganda). If it did, does that alone justify invasion? Saudi Arabia has some pretty brutal punishments...but oh! Sorry, I forgot...they are our friends. And then there is China, Myanmar, Sudan, and so on...<br /> The point is, do we invade and occupy indefinitely any country with a government that does not respect human rights? If so, maybe Canada needs to invade the US for executing so many people, as well as for the torture, war crimes, etc (or is all that just propaganda?) <br /> <br /> <i>I think is says something that the country responsible for the two biggest wars in the last 100 years, Germany, are in Afghanistan but wanted nothing to do with Iraq.</i><br /> >>>OK, so what does it say?

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]'They' (the Afghans) trained no-one, Al Qaeda trained there, among other places. Mostly what they did was run around in the sand...the truly deadly stuff (i.e., planning an attack) was done in Germany and the US.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Ummm, the Taliban are Afghani. Do you have evidence that they were trained in Germany and the US?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> <i>They harbour Osama, </i><br /> >>Do they? What evidence do you have of this? For all we know, he is driving a cab in Brooklyn.<br /> ..or Toronto. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Again, do you have evidence he's a cab drive? Whereas, there are many links to show that both the US and Taliban claim him in the border region of Pakistan/Afghanistan.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> <i>and were given a chance to give him up in order to avoid an invasion.</i><br /> >>actually, this claim is dubious. Bush was intent on invading whether Osama was handed over or not.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Again, reports say differently. We wanted Osama, all they had to do was cough him up.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> <i>And the Netherlands does not take women out to the soccer stadium and shoot them in the back of the head in front of a crowd.</i><br /> >>Not yet, anyway. So, what evidence do you have that this occured under the Taliban? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Not yet? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> Nice. Yea, there is a famous video smuggled out of Afghanistan showing bodies hung from the goal posts, and women having a gun put to their head and shot on the field lines.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> <i>I think is says something that the country responsible for the two biggest wars in the last 100 years, Germany, are in Afghanistan but wanted nothing to do with Iraq.</i><br /> >>>OK, so what does it say?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It was a justified cause. Iraq was not.<br />

[wolkoffd]

just joking about the Netherlands...I think (although things are getting rather frightening there).<br /> <br /> <br /> Anyway, again we must be very careful when we '<i>they</i>' people. I specified that Al Qaeda were not and are not Afghani...the Taliban, yes, but not Al Qaeda. There is a big difference. The Taliban may have been bullies. They may have been brutal. They could even be called terrorists. But Al Qaeda they were not...they are not even Arabs, and Al Qaeda is a pan-Arab nationalist group masquerading as pan-Islamic (there are no known leaders who are not Arab). Al Qaeda was just using Afghanistan as a nice place where they could do what they wanted off in the semi-desert, after Sudan asked them to leave. <br /> I never saw the photos you mentioned of women executed, although I don't doubt that it happened. I do wonder - what was the situation? Were they convicted of anything? The US executes people too. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Taliban too much (you can surely appreciate that trap, being opposed to the war in Iraq). Still, I must ask, 'When do human rights abuses reach a point where military intervention is necessary? Must one weigh the costs of intervening in dead on both side? Or shall we invade every time we feel there are gross human rights abuses? Are there other ways? Were these tried in this case? Do you really think that the US would have allowed any alternative to invasion?'<br /> As for the assertion that there is 'good intelligence' that Osama is in Afghanistan, that is almost too funny. Is that, by any chance, the same sort of 'good intelligence' that led to the Iraq War? The failure to capture Osama in 2001? The bombing of a village in Pakistan by the CIA yesterday? Even if the US had good intelligence, it is invariably politicized. Of all the things you have said so far, this one takes the cake... (hmmm, sorry, no cake icons).<br /> OK, so if the invasion of Afghanistan was justified, when does this justification end? Do troops stay there forever to guarantee that the Afghans remain 'liberated'? What is the exit strategy? We have heard the criticisms vis-a-vis Iraq, but no-one seems to ask the same questions for Afghanistan, which has now been under foreign occupation for over 4 years. And most of the country remains just as lawless as ever, with warlords ruling their little fiefdoms, each one ensuring they get their piece of the opium smuggling profits. And no pesky journalists around take photos of the atrocities that may or may not be occurring.<br /> As for your assertion that 'We wanted Osama, all they had to do was cough him up.', here is a quote from Wikipedia:<br /> 'When threatened with retributive attack by the U.S. for harboring al-Qaeda, the Taliban government offered to judge Osama bin Laden in an Islamic court, and later, to hand him over to a neutral country for a war crimes trial. These offers were rejected by the United States, which instead offered an ultimatum...'<br /> <br /> As for the war being justified, that is an <i>opinion</i>. Many people feel the same way about the Iraq Wars, the Vietnam War, etc. Please, your assertion leaves me with nothing to argue against...at least offer some lame rationale! <br /> <br /> (hey, how do you do that multiple colouring thing?)<BR><BR><BR><BR><P></P><BR>

[coug]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] But Afghanistan is not pointless. . . . They harbour Osama . . . [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> There is a big possibility that Bin Laden is in China. Look at a map. Western China is very much like Afghanistan. He would be very safe there, as long as he behaved himself. I suspect that the Americans know where he is, but don't want to mess with China. On the other hand, China has no problems with denial, and would not be adverse to annoying the Americans. We could have a standoff. This might explain why the Americans have stopped looking for him.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> Anyway, again we must be very careful when we '<i>they</i>' people. I specified that Al Qaeda were not and are not Afghani...the Taliban, yes, but not Al Qaeda. <br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> "Al Queda" if they exist* are from all countries, including Afghanistan. To test your conception of whether they exist or not, download and watch "The Power of Nightmares" from the BBC.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd] I never saw the photos you mentioned of women executed, although I don't doubt that it happened. I do wonder - what was the situation? Were they convicted of anything?<br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> <a href='http://www.rawa.org/zarmeena.htm'>Link 1</a> (video)<br /> <a href='http://www.rawa.org/zarmeena2.htm'>Link</a> 2 her story.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]As for the assertion that there is 'good intelligence' that Osama is in Afghanistan, that is almost too funny.[/quote]<br /> <br /> There is far more reliable and multiple reports that he is in Afghanistan than there are that he's a Toronto cab driver.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> OK, so if the invasion of Afghanistan was justified, when does this justification end? Do troops stay there forever to guarantee that the Afghans remain 'liberated'? What is the exit strategy?[/quote]<br /> <br /> I could tell you, but it's classified above your rating.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> As for your assertion that 'We wanted Osama, all they had to do was cough him up.', here is a quote from Wikipedia:<br /> 'When threatened with retributive attack by the U.S. for harboring al-Qaeda, the Taliban government offered to judge Osama bin Laden in an Islamic court, and later, to hand him over to a neutral country for a war crimes trial. These offers were rejected by the United States, which instead offered an ultimatum...'<br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> Judging by the above links, what would the likely outcome of a Islamic court trial be? They'd pin a medal on him for killing thousands of people.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> As for the war being justified, that is an <i>opinion</i>. <br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> As for the war being <b>un</b>justified, that is an <i>opinion</i>.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> Many people feel the same way about the Iraq Wars, the Vietnam War, etc. Please, your assertion leaves me with nothing to argue against...at least offer some lame rationale![/quote]<br /> <br /> What rationale, other than the facts are needed? Osama killed thousands. Osama needed to be held accountable. Afghaninstan harboured him willingly, and would have fed more homicide bombers throughout the world. That had to end, quickly.<br /> <br /> Afghanistan used to be a beautiful, lush country. Perhaps one day it can be again.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> (hey, how do you do that multiple colouring thing?)[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Use the "quote" button on the editing screen. Be sure you have matching "quote" and "/quote" tags, or your post will come out blank. Preview!!

[wolkoffd]

Why would Bush want to find Osama? If he did, the 'War on Terror' would have to be declared over...and we wouldn't want that now, would we? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> My best guess - Osama is somewhere at W's ranch in Crawford...why else would W go there so often? He's consulting his best buddy Osama on how to further inflame Muslims worldwide and encourage them to join the Jihad against Crusaders & Jews (America & Israel). I'm sure he has some cute nickname for him, too ('Sammy'?). That way, the GWOT (Global War on Terror) can go on forever, reaping untold profits for Haliburton and unchecked powers for the CCFL (Commander-in-Chief-for Life). <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'>

[Dr Caleb]

The world may never know. Just like how many licks it takes to get to the bottom of a tootsie pop. Would it vary? The number of licks, I mean. Someone could have super-disolving spit, or watery-spit. Or what if you took big ol' slobbery licks? Does the commercial take that into account? No. It doesn't. And let me tell you, it's an outrage.<br />

[wolkoffd]

Thanks for the link, Dr. Caleb...I had visited RAWA's website, but had only found the video...so, apparently this woman was accused of murdering her husband. Sounds like the legal proceedings were minimal and the sentence certainly barbaric (although little different from what happens weekly in Texas and California).<br /> <br /> Yes, whether anything is justified or not is an opinion. Wouldn't it be useful, however, to have some framework for deciding what is justified and what is not? Or do we just go with 'might makes right'?<br /> <br /> Anyway, thanks for not questioning my manhood/patriotism/sanity for questioning military intervention, as I am used to when I lived in the US.<br /> I can tell you are a bona fide Canadian by your spelling of 'harbour' (and by your willingness to actually listen).

[wolkoffd]

<i>Afghanistan used to be a beautiful, lush country. Perhaps one day it can be again.</i><br /> <br /> 'Lush'???? What have <i>you </i>been drinking? (And can you get me some?) Sorry, but people I know who have served in Afghanistan tell me it is barren and frozen most of the year...<br /> <br /> But, anyway, I'm sure a few more decades of occupation by us Canadians will make the place 'lush' again...

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] Yes, we should all mourn the loss.<br /> <br /> But Afghanistan is not pointless. They trained many terrorists. They harbour Osama, and were given a chance to give him up in order to avoid an invasion.<br /> <br /> And the Netherlands does not take women out to the soccer stadium and shoot them in the back of the head in front of a crowd.<br /> <br /> I think is says something that the country responsible for the two biggest wars in the last 100 years, Germany, are in Afghanistan but wanted nothing to do with Iraq.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> But by that regard every nation with terrorists (a lot) should be occupied. Why should we spill our blood for little benefit? <br /> <br /> Not to mention I think blaming Germany for World War I and II is a bit unfair.

[wolkoffd]

Speaking of the Dutch, their government is on the verge of collapse over opposition to sending troops to Afghanistan. <a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article338476.ece">here</a><br /> <b><i>Where is the debate in Canada?</i></b>

[wolkoffd]

Read background on the Afghanistan War <a href="http://antiwar.com/regions/regions.php?countryid=8">here</a>

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= wolkoffd] Thanks for the link, Dr. Caleb...I had visited RAWA's website, but had only found the video...so, apparently this woman was accused of murdering her husband. Sounds like the legal proceedings were minimal and the sentence certainly barbaric (although little different from what happens weekly in Texas and California).[/quote]<br /> <br /> Any time.<br /> <br /> If you read her story (from the link) There were no legal proceedings. She was beaten for weeks until she offered a confession - she wanted to kill her husband, but could't do it. Her daughter killed him. Before her confession, all of her kids were sold into sex slavery, which is what finally broke her.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd] <i>Afghanistan used to be a <br /> beautiful, lush country. Perhaps one day it can be again.</i><br /> <br /> 'Lush'???? What have <i>you </i>been drinking? (And can you get me some?) Sorry, but people I know who have served in Afghanistan tell me it is barren and frozen most of the year...[/quote]<br /> <br /> It is now, but it wasn't always.<br /> <br /> "In most of Afghanistan today, the gardens have been decimated by drought. All that remains of the extensive pistachio forests of Badakhshan province, for example, are a few trees standing stark against the mountains. "We have destroyed an economic resource," says the provincial Acting Governor, Muhammed Shah Zijhum. "And bare mountains mean more floods and soil erosion." <br /> <br /> <a href='http://www.fao.org/english/newsroom/news/2002/8920-en.html'>Link</a><br /> <br /> "A new catastrophe faces Afghanistan - the US bombing campaign is conspiring with years of civil conflict and drought to create an environmental crisis.<br /> <br /> Humanitarian and political concerns are dominating the headlines. But they are also masking the disappearance of the country's once rich habitat and wildlife, which are quietly being crushed by war. "<br /> <br /> "Much of south-east Afghanistan was once lush forest watered by monsoon rains. Forests now cover less than two per cent of the country. "The worst deforestation occurred during Taliban rule, when its timber mafia denuded forests to sell to Pakistani markets," says Usman Qazi, an environmental consultant based in Quetta, Pakistan."<br /> <br /> <a href='http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1733'>Link</a><br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> But, anyway, I'm sure a few more decades of occupation by us Canadians will make the place 'lush' again...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> It can be. Soldiers there are already bringing water to villiages through drilling wells. Slowly we're winning the people back away from the warlords.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> Anyway, thanks for not questioning my manhood/patriotism/sanity for questioning military intervention, as I am used to when I lived in the US.<br /> I can tell you are a bona fide Canadian by your spelling of 'harbour' (and by your willingness to actually listen).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Had you taken RabbleWatchs' method of debate (insulting, name calling . . .) then I might be more hostile. But you are indeed a Canadian. You'd prefer intellegent conversation to childlike antics. For which I commend you too!<br />

[wolkoffd]

Thanks, Doc. You're a good man.<br /> Still, I don't believe that Canada, even with the best of intentions, can change Afhanistan; countless others (British, Soviets, Americans). Afghans will have to do that themselves. Meanwhile, we can be distancing ourselves from the US-led war. Otherwise, we'll be a target, just as they are...