[Poz]

In this day and age I do not beleive that a stronger military necesarily means more sovereignty. I do think though that more military spending is not such a bad thing. In Germany when you graduate from highschool you either have to work for the public service or the military for a set term (I cant remember how long, buts its no more than 2 years). I personally like this idea because it a) gets young people working, this age-group has high-unemployment, b) it educates the population in many different aspects c) you give young people the opportunity to explore career choices d)you have a large force that can come to assistance during crises like the forst fires in BC last summer e) we then have a larger contingency that can participate in peace-keeping operations and reassert Canada's leadership in peace-keeping. A friend of mine from Germany said he really appreciated his time to do service for the country and it gave him a free education and opened up his eyes to new career opportunities for after his university degree.

[whelan costen]

Poz I agree, but also I think that the dollars we are told are spent on the military and what is actually may not be as clear; as in when they spent mega bucks for the new RCMP head's office,Italian leather everything etc, that goes into the Department of National defence spending reports, does it not? The spending for actually salaries, equipment etc is not our major expense it's the wastage that is killing us. I think we need to have a well trained(and we do), well equiped(and we don't), military force prepared to protect, defend and support the civil authority when necessary as in forest fires, floods, ice storms etc. We should be able to respond to Canadian emergencies, that doesn't mean we should be capable of responding to invasions of other countries by other countries and the subsequent cleanup.

[Poz]

I totally agree that the money is being spent in the wrong fashion. Canada was once a world leader in peace-keeping, this is due in part to the fact we were one of the only prosperous countries post-WW2. There is no need for Canada to become a militaristic power just one that looks out for its citizens and does its part in the world.

[Reverend Blair]

I think increased military spending can help us to keep our sovereignty. Peacekeeping is part of that because it allows to operate as part of the international community instead of as a client state of the US. Anything that earns respect in the international arena helps to protect our sovereignty.

The problem is that I don't trust Martin to institute peacekeeping or even military in our north as a way of building and protecting sovereignty. I worry very much that he would instead use it as a way to "strengthen ties" with the US.

[Milton]

Well, if we are going to continue to claim the North as our territory then we will have to go around and pee on the marker posts on a regular basis, but I don't think it would have to be soldiers doing the peeing. I like the idea of a compulsory service scheme of some kind for the young folks. It would give them a chance to see the country, earn educational credits, learn skills, meet their peers, gain confidence and probably have one hell of a good time. I don't think it should be a military dictatorship scheme though. I never could agree with the "follow this order or you will be shot" mentality. It reminds me too much of the Kings and Queens " off with their heads" syndrome.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Milton] I never could agree with the "follow this order or you will be shot" mentality. It reminds me too much of the Kings and Queens " off with their heads" syndrome.[/QUOTE] Sorry Milton, but that is the way it must be. Chain of command is everything in the Forces. Soldiers cannot be allowed to decide whether or not to follow a lawful order.<p> But you only get shot for treason. Punishment is usually administrative - confined to barracks, bread and water for 2 days, 5 laps of the parade grounds pushing this jeep kind of stuff. The 'stockade' is worse.<p> Also Known As CFB Greisbah in Edmonton, Canada's Military prison. I've seen big tough rowdy men go there for two months for striking a superior, and they came out broken; like a dog that's been beat within an inch of it's life. But the punishment is never physically abusive, it's mental and emotional. The officer responsible for 'hazing' rituals in the Airborne was sentenced there for 10 years.<p> It makes a great deterrent. The guards in the prison do it because they want to make better soldiers, which makes the punishment worse.<p>

[Milton]

I won't agree with you on that Doc. The only thing blind obedience gets you is more blindness. The military(all the armies in the world) are one of the most wasteful, useless organizations ever to inflict themselves on humanity. Might makes right, if we don't do it then they will, survival of the fittest is a natural law and we must obey nature. You can go on all day but what it boils down to is eventually ordering some youngster to kill somebody else cause you,(the officer), say so. As far as prisons go, it is my observation that they don't work. You may break some guys,(guys means males or females), down but is that a good thing? You also turn a lot of guys into psychos, is that a good thing? As far as lawful orders go, who makes up the law? As far as treason goes who defines what constitutes it.

[glip]

Compulsory civl and/or military service for those not pursuing further studies would be beneficial I think. Civil service could even include things like tree planting, forest fire work, and shoveling Toronto streets in the winter.

[sthompson]

Yes, the Canadian military should focus on "peacekeeping" (although I think we need to reevaluate what that means as well) and especially being able to address domestic disasters. <P> Other than that, you guys are nuts (except Milton). Compulsory military service is a GOOD idea?? DON'T sign me up. I have enough trouble with the U.S. "no child left behind" program that makes it compulsory for schools to to turn their student names etc over to recruiting officers for the military. <p> In the US case it's even worse because trading education for military service often preys on poor people, people of colour and immigrants in the U.S. and means there are kids in Iraq losing their lives just because they wanted to better themselves. <P> Even if that isn't the case in Canada, I'd like an education that teaches me critical thinking, thanks, not blind obedience. Dr Caleb, I completed an Honours Psych project on the kind of hazing rituals and training we have in the US and Canadian militaries (which has incidentally upped kill rates to 90-something percent--in old-style militaries without the same training techniques, it was rare for people to shoot their guns and even more rare for them to hit something). Call me old-fashioned, but I call those mental techniques you mention "brainwashing." You literally said "breaking" someone is good. My god. <p> In general what the military does is train people to act before thinking--it makes killing an automatic response (not always so easy to cope with for soldiers when they have to fit back in to normal society--often leads to PTSD). That makes it more likely soldiers can perform. Throw in the sense of "brotherhood" that makes soldiers willing to die for their buddies, and add the diffusion of responsibility ("I was just following orders" AND "everyone else did it so it can't be that bad" AND "it was my soldiers who did that, not me") and you have a very nice little obedience factory. <P> Where's the democracy in that? Of course there is none. It's an authoritarian, testosterone-fueled system, even in "kindler, gentler" Canada. At the very least people should have the choice whether to join or not. <P> I don't see how compulsory civil service is a good idea either. We're supposed to be a free and democratic country--shouldn't we promote choices? <P> Please, just go rent Cool Hand Luke.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Milton]The only thing blind obedience gets you is more blindness. The military(all the armies in the world) are one of the most wasteful, useless organizations ever to inflict themselves on humanity.[/QUOTE] Perhaps you didn't read my post. I said :"Soldiers cannot be allowed to decide whether or not to follow a lawful order.". That is not blind obedience. That is using judgement to carry out an order. If the Sgt says, put your packs on and run 10 miles, there is no reason to disobey. If the Major says go and kill every man, woman and child in the villiage, you are obligated to disobey under the code of military justice, and the Geneva Conventions. You have keys that lock your door, right? If you never get broken into, are they useless? Canada's Military is the only thing keeping you in a free and democratic country. It prevents, say, Iceland from invading us and taking away our country. Now, if they never invade, is the military useless? So long as other countries have militaries, we must as well. Might does not Make Right, but Might makes you free. I don't expect you to understand. [QUOTE BY= Milton] As far as prisons go, it is my observation that they don't work. You may break some guys,(guys means males or females), down but is that a good thing? You also turn a lot of guys into psychos, is that a good thing? [/QUOTE] If civillian prisions were run the way Military ones were, they would work. The whole purpose is to take someone who has authority or anger problems and make them productive people again. Trust me, the only similarity between a civillian prison and a military one is that in both, your rights and freedoms are suspended, and for civillian ones, that is a changing. Like I said, the Provost Marshall is committed to changing people for the better. Canada Forces Detention centre in Edmonton is not a storage facility for bad military personelle, it is there to help people in need of some attitude adjusting, and to act as a deterrent for others. Days are regimented down to the proper way to make a bed, the proper way to shine your shoes, the proper way to chew your food . . . It's not a place one wants to be. <a href="http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/114-01_e.asp">Canadian Military Detention center</a> [QUOTE BY= Milton] As far as lawful orders go, who makes up the law? As far as treason goes who defines what constitutes it. [/QUOTE] The Government Canada, and the United Nations of course. <a href="http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/83744.html">Justice Canada</a> <a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/i2intwcr.htm">The UN</a> <a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm">The UN</a> <a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/q_genev1.htm">More UN</a> <a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm">And now for something completely different..</a> What? Did you think they were made up on the spot? Incidently, the above is required reading in basic training for all Forces Personelle.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= sthompson] Yes, the Canadian military should focus on "peacekeeping" (although I think we need to reevaluate what that means as well) and especially being able to address domestic disasters. <P> Other than that, you guys are nuts (except Milton). Compulsory military service is a GOOD idea?? DON'T sign me up. I have enough trouble with the U.S. "no child left behind" program that makes it compulsory for schools to to turn their student names etc over to recruiting officers for the military. <p> [/QUOTE] I agree with you on peacekeeping, but not military service. I haven't actually said if I'm for or against it, and I'm staying on the sidelines for now because of my known bias, but look at countries that have it. Switzerland, Luxembourg, Sweden to name a couple. The difference between them, Canada and the US? It's training. The US teaches their soldiers how to blindly kill the enemy in a hail of lead. Everyone else teaches their soldiers how to defend their countries, while helping the opposition die for their country. It's been my experience that the Average Canadian soldier shoots as well as a highly trained US sniper. Canada teaches our soldiers how to rebuild schools after the US bombs them. [QUOTE BY= sthompson]I completed an Honours Psych project on the kind of hazing rituals and training we have in the US and Canadian militaries (which has incidentally upped kill rates to 90-something percent--in old-style militaries without the same training techniques, it was rare for people to shoot their guns and even more rare for them to hit something). Call me old-fashioned, but I call those mental techniques you mention "brainwashing." You literally said "breaking" someone is good. My god. [/QUOTE] I'm not going to argue with you, because killing people was my job. It's what I was trained to do, and I hold on to the idea that what I did, whether it was kill or bleed, I did for the good of my country. (not directed at you Susan, nor anyone in particular) I don't expect everyone to feel good about what I had to do, in fact some may resent that I did it, but I do expect them to respect that I had to do it. And yes, to take someone who is completely out of control, who does not play well with others, and put them in a structured environment for a few weeks or months to give them some sort of control over their emotions, to 'break' them of anti-social behaviour is good. You have to understand the kind of person I'm talking about here. The typical anti-social type, built like a Mack truck; bad attitude and as thick as a bull. Someone who would pick a fight, just to see you bleed. I saw this man at the chow line. He would take his plate full, and the next guy's too if the guy didn't object. He'd sit down and proceed to shovel food in his face. One day, he didn't feel like doing what the Stg asked, and took a swing at him. That was the third time he hit a superior, so it was off the detention for two months. When he came back, he was just as tough as ever, but with a much better attitude. I think time spent there was beneficial to him. Would that have happened in the civillian system, or would that man be a far worse citizen? [QUOTE BY= sthompson] Throw in the sense of "brotherhood" that makes soldiers willing to die for their buddies, and add the diffusion of responsibility ("I was just following orders" AND "everyone else did it so it can't be that bad" AND "it was my soldiers who did that, not me") and you have a very nice little obedience factory. <P> Where's the democracy in that? Of course there is none. It's an authoritarian, testosterone-fueled system, even in "kindler, gentler" Canada. At the very least people should have the choice whether to join or not. <P> I don't see how compulsory civil service is a good idea either. We're supposed to be a free and democratic country--shouldn't we promote choices? <P> Please, just go rent Cool Hand Luke. [/QUOTE] I can assure you that the testosterone fueled killing brotherhood couldn't be farther from the truth. It's not an obedience factory, it's a human machine designed to carry out tasks that no one else will do within international laws. "I was only following orders" is not an excuse, and has beed drilled into the heads of every recruit since the Neurmburg trials. The military is not a democracy. Officers have lost command because they took a vote on which movie to show on movie night. If you go there expecting things to be ethier fair, or a democracy, then you shouldn't go. Don't watch Hollywood War Movies and assume they are facts. If you do, try "The Big Red One", "A Bridge Too Far", or my favorite, "The Devils Brigade".

[whelan costen]

Well Dr. Caleb, I agree with your post and I have a little knowledge of the military today also, not as much as you but some. The training we have today is second to none, but the 'hazing' etc, is very rare if it happens at all anymore. The brotherhood is excellent, not just because you'll die for your buddy but because it creates a value on human life, no one wants to die!

I think the discipline in the military is excellent, the mind games are really just a method of getting people to work together, to take orders etc. It isn't that different then training for fire drill, you do it so that in an emergency it is second nature, you don't have time to think and so you don't you react. I think that a major problem in our society is that we don't respect authority in any form, we have let the pendulum swing to far. That I believe is part of the problem with young offenders, no limits, with no limits their is nothing to challenge which is natural for youth; so they go beyond what is humanly believable. Why do young people kill each other? No respect for human life, no idea about limits, the military teaches respect, limits and routine, etc.

Not sure if I would make it mandatory because then you get a bunch of people who don't want to be there pissing on the rest who do. If a person wants to learn a trade, serve their country and can tolerate taking orders, it is a great opportunity. I know that some other countries give all people the opportunity to be trained and they are considered soldiers at all times, even after they serve, that way they can defend their country if necessary. In Canada after you served for several years, you still have to take courses to get a gun license, the course is given by a special trainer, not necessarily a policeman or military personel.

We need to give our military personel more respect for the service they perform, and the training they have received. Also from what I heard, it is nothing like t.v., absolutely nothing! My sources on the military are quite close, from present day and 1960's so although some of the media attention focused on a loose group who were nuts, that is not the norm.

Also I can't agree with the statment that all military is wrong, useless and wasteful. Yes some young people may end up killing another person to defend our nation, but that is a last resort. If we are not prepared to defend ourselves, then we must be prepared to be taken over. If I can't defend myself in civil life I call the police, they are paid to do it for me, are we going to pay another country to defend and protect us? I would prefer to take the 'a good offence is the best defence' attitude; strong countries are not threatened, because they are capable. You can take that further, why do the police recommend that women walking alone, posture in such a way that they send a message they are confident and can protect themselves? Simply because it sends a message, which is rarely challenged, the people who look vulnerable will be attacked, same with a country, in my opinion.

[whelan costen]

OOOPs I must have sounded like the U.S., 'a good offense is the best defence' I got it backwards...what I meant was that if you have a good defence and are capable of defending yourself, you probably will never have to!

[Poz]

I saw Romeo Dallaire speak a couple weeks ago and although I have not read his book yet I took an intersting thing away from his talk. He said that what Canada needs to do is lead the world in training "philosopher soldiers", those werent his exact words but it sums it up. What he was getting at was having educated soldiers that could offer more in peacekeeping missions than just defense or enforcement, they could analyze situations in a humane way. Just some food for thought. In regards to mandatory service I don't think it is a bad thing at all. This is not necesarily service that will train you to kill or get screamed at by a drill sgt. but service that will make you available for national emergencies, just like I had mentioned before. This would have many benefits like I already discussed but it would help give a better sense of community in Canada as the young people would get to travel the country and assist in things that matter to Canadians. As far as saying this is undemocratic and we should be promoting free choice this is a very liberal view. I myself am a broad communitarian with some appreciation for liberal values and I see the value in promoting a strengthening of Canadian community. The community feeling that mandatory (only a year) service would create would strengthen our fight for a unified sovereign Canada.

[whelan costen]

Yes Poz, actually Canadian Soldiers are already taught a more humanitarian approach, you can see it working in Afganistan! I'm sure we could use more...but apparently we are already doing it as part of the training.