[Marcarc]

"when people are out to get you paranoia is just good thinking" - Johnny Fever<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> 1962-1963, Canada: ^Knocking Over Dief the Chief<br /> <br /> (a) A Plot Made in the U.S. By Richard Sanders, editor, Press for Conversion!<br /> <br /> In 1962, the U.S. Ambassador to Canada, Livingston Merchant, and his Second Secretary Charles Kisselyak, fuelled a plot among the Canadian Air Forces, Canadian journalists and others to dispose of Prime Minister Diefenbaker. Kennedy hated Dief largely for his anti-nuclear stance. Merchant and other U.S. embassy officers with espionage backgrounds, met at Kisselyak^s home in Ottawa to feed journalists with spaghetti, beer and anti-Diefenbaker/pronuclear propaganda. Among the many participants in these off-the-record briefings was Charles Lynch of Southam News. <br /> <br /> Diefenbaker later denounced these reporters as 'traitors' and 'foreign agents.' He lashed out against Lynch on a TV program saying, 'You were given briefings as to how the Canadian government could be attacked on the subject of nuclear weapons and the failure of the Canadian government to do that which the U.S. dictated.'<br /> <br /> Merchant and Kisselyak worked with RCAF Wing Commander Bill Lee and NORAD's number two man, Canadian Air Marshall Roy Slemon. Air Marshall Hugh Campbell and the chair of Canada's chiefs of staff, Air Marshall Frank Miller also approved Lee's campaign. Diefenbaker's avidly pronuclear Defence Minister, Douglas Harkness, also knew of Lee's effort. As head of RCAF public relations, Lee went to Washington twice a month to confer with U.S. authorities. "It was a flat-out campaign" he later said. "We identified key journalists, business and labour, key Tory hitters, and...Liberals.... We wanted people with influence on members of cabinet. In the end the pressure paid off."<br /> <br /> In 1962, new U.S. ambassador, William Butterworth, continued the "flat-out campaign" by holding discrete meetings at the U.S. embassy to exert influence on Canadian journalists. Lester Pearson was the President's choice. Kennedy gave the go-ahead to his friend and America's leading pollster, Lou Harris, to become the Liberal's secret campaign advisor in the 1962 election. <br /> <br /> Diefenbaker survived with a minority government. The plot to bring down Canada's government came to a head in January, 1963. On Jan.3, top U.S. Air Force General Lauris Norstad held an Ottawa press conference. Prompted by questions from Lynch, and other reporters briefed by U.S. intelligence, Norstad criticized Canada^s antinuclear stance. <br /> <br /> On Jan. 12, Pearson announced his new policy of supporting U.S. nuclear weapons in Canada. In protest, Pierre Trudeau called Pearson the "defrocked priest of peace" and refused to run for the Liberals. The coup's final blow came when the U.S. State Department issued a press release which called Diefenbaker a liar on nuclear issues (Jan. 30). This tactic was suggested by Willis Armstrong, head of the State Departments Canada Desk in Washington. <br /> <br /> Butterworth added his suggestions and sent his senior embassy advisor, Rufus Smith, to Washington to draft it. "With Armstrong chairing, half a dozen officials from State, the White House and the Pentagon...shaped...the rebuke." The draft was polished by Under Secretary of State George McGhee and approved by acting Secretary of State, George Ball, and national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy. The Canadian media had a heyday attacking Diefenbaker. Fights broke out in Cabinet. <br /> <br /> Diefenbaker recalled Canada^s ambassador from the U.S. On Feb. 5, Defence Minister Harkness announced his resignation and Pearson called for a non-confidence vote. Dief's minority government fell, or rather, it was 'knocked over.' Kisselyak was the U.S. embassy^s contact to Pearson's election campaign. The Liberals had the strong advantages of a friendly media and Harris' state-of-the-art, computerized polling tactics.<br /> <br /> Diefenbaker, facing a primed hostile media, ran a stridently anti-U.S. campaign. Pearson's victory was hailed by newspapers across North America. Within days, the new External Affairs Minister, Paul Martin Sr., was approached by Butterworth to negotiate the acceptance of U.S. nuclear weapons. The warheads were deployed in Canada on New Year's Eve and there was partying in Washington.<br /> <br /> - On General Norstad's Media conference, Jan. 3 ^[Norstad^s] purpose was to establish a basis for Pearson^s conversion to U.S. nuclear policy.^ (Diefenbaker)<br /> <br /> ^Kennedy sent Norstad to do this hatchet job on us. It was American imperialism of the highest order.^ (Alvin Hamilton, Agriculture minister)<br /> <br /> "This was another American turn of the screw to bring down the Conservative government." (Charles Ritchie, Canada's ambassador to the U.S.)<br /> <br /> - On Pearson decision to reverse Liberal Policy and accept U.S. nuclear warheads into Canada (if elected), Jan. 12<br /> <br /> -Kennedy achieved his dearest Canadian wish. Pearson progressed... to embracing the U.S. position on arming with nuclear weapons the Bomarcs and, no doubt, yielding to U.S. demands for storage of all manner of nuclear devices in Canada. (Diefenbaker)<br /> <br /> "A pure example of Pearson^s willingness to accept the leadership of the U.S. on any vital matter." (Hamilton)<br /> <br /> "Liberal policies were ^made in the U.S. "(Tommy Douglas, NDP Leader<br /> <br /> - On the U.S. press release, Jan. 30<br /> <br /> "It was as deliberate an attempt as ever made to bring down a foreign government." (Ed Ritchie, former under secretary of state for external affairs)<br /> <br /> "This action by the State Department of the U.S. is unprecedented...it constitutes an unwarranted intrusion in Canadian affairs... [Canada] will not be pushed around or accept external domination or interference in making its decisions.^ ^President Kennedy was going to obliterate us. I dared to say to him that Canada^s policies would be made in Canada by Canadians." (Diefenbaker)<br /> <br /> "An absolute outrage, the most blatant, heavy-handed, intolerable piece of bullying." (Charles Ritchie)<br /> <br /> "Like a bombshell" (a Diefenbaker aide)<br /> <br /> "Brazen interference." (Howard Green, External Affairs Minister)<br /> <br /> "The U.S. should know from this Parliament that they are not dealing with Guatemala...or Cuba." (Douglas)<br /> <br /> "Kennedy decided the government had to go...[I] wouldn^t put it past him to say, ^Get rid of the bastards."" (R.Bell, Immigration Minister)<br /> <br /> "Very useful. Highly beneficial in advancing U.S. interests by introducing realism into a government which has made anti-Americanism... practically its entire stock in trade." (William Butterworth, U.S. ambassador to Canada)<br /> <br /> Trudeau^s summary of the events of January 1963 "Do you think General Norstad... came to Ottawa as a tourist?... Do you think it was by chance that Pearson... quoted the authority of Norstad? Do you think it was inadvertant that on January 30 the state department gave a statement to journalists reinforcing Pearson's claims and crudely accusing Diefenbaker of lying? You think it was by chance that this press release provided the Leader of the Opposition with the arguments he used abundantly? You believe it was coincidence? Why [should] the U.S. treat Canada differently from Guatemala when reason of state requires it and circumstances permit?" (Pierre E. Trudeau)<br /> <br /> Source: From K.Nash, Kennedy and Diefenbaker: Fear and Loathing Across the Undefended Border, 1990.<br /> <br /> ------------------------------------------<br /> <br /> (c) CIA Fingerprints: The Americans behind the Plot to Oust John Diefenbaker<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

CIA brainwashing victims seek Canada court action<br /> <br /> By James Stairs Jan 19, 2007, 16:17 GMT<br /> <br /> Montreal - In a case that sounds like science fiction, a Montreal court is deciding whether a class action lawsuit can be brought against the Canadian government on behalf of more than 250 psychiatric patients who were unwittingly subjected to radical experiments in the 1950s.<br /> <br /> The so-called MK-ULTRA tests were part of a secret mind-control programme funded by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Canadian government in the 1950s.<br /> <br /> The Cold-War-era experiments, carried out by a Scottish doctor in Montreal, included forced isolation, induced-comas, electro-shock therapy and the use of hallucinogenic drugs, including LSD and paralysis-inducing narcotics.<br /> <br /> Lawyers for Janine Huard, a 78-year-old great-grandmother, told a Montreal court last week that their client suffered for years as a result of Dr. Ewan Cameron's experiments at the Allan Memorial Institute, a psychiatric hospital based at Montreal's McGill University.<br /> <br /> The experiments were part of a controversial secret CIA programme, aimed at uncovering techniques of mind control and led by Cameron, who died in 1967.<br /> <br /> MK-ULTRA was launched by the CIA in 1953 and headed by the American chemist Sidney Gottleib. It reportedly funded projects both at home and abroad, including the Montreal study, and hoped to be able to find ways to extract information from prisoners and influence foreign leaders through brainwashing.<br /> <br /> The project was brought under scrutiny in 1974 when newspaper reporters uncovered that MK-ULTRA had drugged unwitting subjects in the US with hallucinogens and secretly observed their actions. The project had been disbanded a year earlier and all record of its activities were destroyed.<br /> <br /> Cameron's research specifically revolved around 'psychic driving' - a potential cure, he believed, for depression and dementia that involved erasing patients memories and then building them back up again.<br /> <br /> Huard said that she first came under the care of Cameron, a former president of the World Psychiatric Association, when she consulted him in 1951 regarding a case of postpartum depression after the birth of the second of her four children. She was in his care another two times up to 1962.<br /> <br /> The court heard that Huard and hundreds of others were test subjects for Cameron's 'de-patterning' experiments, which included the repeated playing of recorded messages while patients lay in a drug-induced semi-comatose state.<br /> <br /> Huard said that she underwent electro-shock treatments and was administered dozens of unknown pills a day, keeping her semi- conscious.<br /> <br /> 'She never knew that she was being subjected to these experiments or that she was being used by Dr. Cameron and his staff as a guinea pig,' Alan Stein, Huard's lawyer told the court.<br /> <br /> The aftermath of the tests, she said, left her unable to function normally, afflicted by memory loss, depression and by migraine headaches.<br /> <br /> 'I came out of there so sick that my mother had to live with me for ten years,' she told reporters. 'I couldn't take care of my children any more.'<br /> <br /> The CIA paid Huard and several others 67,000 US dollars each as part of a 1988 class action settlement.<br /> <br /> In 1994, the Canadian government compensated 77 of the most severely incapacitated former patients 100,000 US dollars each for damage they suffered from the programme.<br /> <br /> Huard and 252 others were denied compensation at the time, since the long-term affects of the testing were not deemed serious enough to warrant payment.<br /> <br /> In 2004, a court overturned one of the decisions and awarded 100,000 Canadian dollars (85,259 US dollars) to Gail Kastner, a former patient who had undergone severe electro-shock therapy to treat her depression in 1953 at the hospital but whose claim had been previously deemed ineligible.<br /> <br /> This decision, Huard's lawyers argued, opens the door for the current class-action request.<br /> <br /> Lawyers for the government did not dispute Huard's claims but argued that the tests happened too long ago for her to make another attempt at compensation.<br /> <br /> 'They demolished me,' Huard told reporters as she entered the court. 'They gave me terrible drugs, electroshocks, and made me stay in a bed with a mask over my face listening to recordings for hours a day. I was afraid.'<br /> <br /> No timetable has been given regarding a decision from the court.

[N Say]

After WW2 the CIA & NATO set up a bunch of fascist terrorist cells that were supposed to create problems for the USSR "just in case" they took over Europe. It was called Operation Gladio & they ended up carrying out various terrorist acts & then attributed them to the communists. That's all true. <br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio<br /> I wonder if that's what the CIA was doing in Quebec in 1970; maybe the FLQ was set up by the CIA? In western Europe fascist terrorism got blamed on 'communists' while in Canada terrorism was to be blamed on Quebec separatists. I don't think that's crazy.

[Marcarc]

I think that one is a little far fetched. It's a theory that has been thrown around, but pretty loosely. From most accounts the US was very much against Quebec nationalism, as they are against any nationalism that goes against their interests, and the FLQ was actually a pretty small force whose members have been extensively interviewed. I'd suspect if the CIA HAD been interested then the FLQ would have been far more established. If anything they had pretty close cuban ties so its highly doubtful the US would want to get involved in that. Other indications were that during the seventies the US had their hands full and this was a pretty marginal story for them. The story above about manipulating canadian media shows the clear cut gains for the US, in the case of the FLQ, there really isn't an outcome predictable enough to warrant getting involved with. <br /> <br />

[Diogenes]

to Mararc <br /> Horsepuckey!<br /> What you have suggested sounds more like an end game ploy and it don't work that way with the Cocain Importing Agency those wonderfull people of Air America and drug running <br /> <br /> locate "Guns, Drugs and the CIA" <br /> Study it!<br /> <br /> Go here get educated!<br /> <br /> http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enCA236CA236&q=CIA+%2b+Crack+cocaine<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[N Say]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]I think that one is a little far fetched. It's a theory that has been thrown around, but pretty loosely. From most accounts the US was very much against Quebec nationalism, as they are against any nationalism that goes against their interests, and the FLQ was actually a pretty small force whose members have been extensively interviewed. I'd suspect if the CIA HAD been interested then the FLQ would have been far more established. If anything they had pretty close cuban ties so its highly doubtful the US would want to get involved in that.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The Pentagon sponsored a study of societies undergoing change & revolution, and Quebec separatism was one of the societies they wanted to study. (as well as a bunch of Latin-American countries) It got shut down within a year since it was too controversial.<br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Camelot<br /> <br /> The author of this Operation Gladio book studied every NATO country except Iceland (no military) & Canada (too far from the Soviet frontier). I'm sure he would have found out some "interesting" stuff if he'd tried though. If NATO & the CIA had secret armies in 14 NATO countries (even after France pulled out of NATO) why not Canada also? I think it's inconceivable that the US hasn't manipulated our elections (etc) at some point.

[Brent Swain]

This may explain the main reason for restictive gun control, to disempower Canadians' ability to resist a US takeover. Both Harper and Ignatief would love a US takover, and would oppose anything which would make that more difficult.<br /> Brent

[N Say]

[QUOTE BY= Brent Swain] This may explain the main reason for restictive gun control, to disempower Canadians' ability to resist a US takeover. Both Harper and Ignatief would love a US takover, and would oppose anything which would make that more difficult.<br /> Brent[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Gun control is probably there because guns kill. I'm actually surprised that Harper hasn't sold us out more. Yes he hasn't definitely said no the the NAU/SSP yet & Chuck Strahl has repeatedly tried to get rid of the Wheat Board (luckily it would be illegal for him to do so). I'm really surprised that Harper's government hasn't sold us out more though.

[Marcarc]

I have no idea what this has to do with cocaine, but like I said, there is NO evidence the CIA controlled or played any part in the FLQ. You can read here (http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/CIA.HTM) an article which asserts at most the CIA was active and used the FLQ, which was a badly organized and pathetic paramilitary group, as a cover for its activities.<br /> <br /> As you will note, I was the one who posted that the CIA had doctors in Quebec doing 'research', so I certainly didn't say they weren't around. However, people should at least stick to what evidence there is, otherwise we might as well believe space aliens were controlling the FLQ or the muppet babies. <br /> <br /> Quebec nationalism at the time was very Castro friendly, and Trudeau had not yet made a mark and showed that he could be as 'american' as any american President when it comes to stamping out human rights, so if anything the CIA would be undermining Quebec nationalism, as several articles suggest. Quebec was in the midst of setting up hydro to feed US cities, and the biggest voice the CIA listens to is industry. Again, thats not to say its not possible, but believing 'theories' with no evidence tends to get you marginalized pretty quickly.

[N Say]

The director of anti-espionage in the RCMP said they were shadowing CIA agents doing unauthorized operations in Montreal at the time of the October Crisis. & since the end of the Cold War the existence of fascist (meaning ex-SS & ex-Vichy govt & others) terrorist cells all over western Europe has been confirmed by the governments of 14 NATO countries. These terrorist cells would blow up a train station (for example) & then blame the communists. Since the FLQ wanted to overthrow the Quebec government & install a Marxist regime, and they got blamed, that's more than enough to get me WONDERING if Canada had anything similar. That sort of thing was par-for-the-course for the Gladio cells in western Europe.

[Marcarc]

First, do you have the link or the source on the RCMP statement? Second, there is a difference between conducting an operation and taking advantage of it. As the above article says, the FLQ was hardly the organization the media made it out to be, was fewer than five guys and yet the government was talking about what to do "if they seized power". As the article above states, the CIA was more than happy to point fingers at the FLQ for anything that happened. The question is much like the 9/11 arguments, did they simply take advantage of the situation, or did they INSTIGATE it. We KNOW they 'took advantage of it', at least pretty much, but certainly not conclusively. Instigating it is another matter. The FLQ kidnapped two people, they certainly didn't need 'weapons' or an arms dealer for that. The FLQ guys certainly never say the CIA was behind it, although one person SAYS they had 'infiltrated the FLQ', but just because one guy SAYS something doesn't make it true. So its a stretch to say that "the CIA kidnapped and killed a guy" and "blamed it on the FLQ". There is ZERO evidence of that, and even the conspiracy theorists out there aren't saying THAT.

[Diogenes]

M-arc.<br /> "I have no idea..."<br /> <br /> The issue You have no idea about hinges on this <br /> “I think that one is a little far fetched”<br /> Far fetched is exactly what the CIA is all about <br /> <br /> “I'd suspect if the CIA HAD been interested then the FLQ would have been far more established.<br /> Exactly! It is you “suspecting” that is at issue. You are not a part of the CIA , or maybe you are one never knows these things for certain but it is certain that the CIA is involved, as you have already pointed out, in “far fetched” actions, and as I recall there was a Member of Parliament’s wife who was one of their guinea pigs too.<br /> When dealing with spooks such as the CIA it would be wise to consider their “far fetched” side <br /> <br /> http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/2766.html <br /> <br /> http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/2766.html <br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

That post I can at least understand. Lots of things are 'far fetched', that doesn't mean we believe them. There are hundreds of books on the CIA and much documentary released even by them. It's not like they are 'men in black'. It's fine to CONSIDER it, but believing it and espousing it are very different. That's what conspiracy theories are all about, and if there are no facts or evidence to back it up, its counterproductive to say that its so. The first two articles I posted were completely corroborated accounts of how the US got involved in a canadian election, the second was a news article about a court case where the CIA admitted to funding experiments. We KNOW those things. As soon as people start jumping to all kinds of conclusions based on things 'they might suspect' then all the credible stories go out the window and the people are just considered kooks-and with good reason. <br /> <br /> As said, it is POSSIBLE, but lots of things are 'possible' that we don't typically believe. If somebody ever talks to me about the CIA in Canada I will be sure to bring up their funding and 'perhaps' even that they may have had people in Quebec. I'm certainly not going to be saying that they were responsible for kidnapping and murder and pinned it on the FLQ, but that's just me, others can say what they want.

[Marcarc]

The above links were the ones where I got the story about Diefenbaker, but they weren't about the CIA. That story says nothing about the CIA in Canada. In fact, as said, if anything Canada has always been a good american cheerleader, largely following behind the US, which of course means there is little NEED for the CIA. There's no doubt that much more research should be done about the CIA in Canada, and I wouldn't be surprised if they also had a presence in Tommy Douglas' Saskatchewan as well as Quebec. But in most cases, overt activities like the one mentioned in the link above accomplish US aims, meaning covert activities aren't nearly as necessary.

[N Say]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc]First, do you have the link or the source on the RCMP statement? [/quote]<br /> Toronto Star reporter Tom Hazlitt interviewed RCMP director of anti-espionage Leslie James Bennett, who didn't think what he said would be published (it was, in 1972 or something). He was shadowing CIA agents who were carrying out operations in Montreal without the permission of the government & he wanted to find out what they were up to. Soon after the article was published he was accused of being a Soviet mole & eventually moved to Australia. His name wasn't cleared until almost 20 years later in the mid-nineties.<br /> <br /> [quote]Second, there is a difference between conducting an operation and taking advantage of it. As the above article says, the FLQ was hardly the organization the media made it out to be, was fewer than five guys and yet the government was talking about what to do "if they seized power". As the article above states, the CIA was more than happy to point fingers at the FLQ for anything that happened. The question is much like the 9/11 arguments, did they simply take advantage of the situation, or did they INSTIGATE it. We KNOW they 'took advantage of it', at least pretty much, but certainly not conclusively. Instigating it is another matter. The FLQ kidnapped two people, they certainly didn't need 'weapons' or an arms dealer for that. The FLQ guys certainly never say the CIA was behind it, although one person SAYS they had 'infiltrated the FLQ', but just because one guy SAYS something doesn't make it true. So its a stretch to say that "the CIA kidnapped and killed a guy" and "blamed it on the FLQ". There is ZERO evidence of that, and even the conspiracy theorists out there aren't saying THAT. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> CIA people didn't necessarily do the actual dirty work in Europe during the Cold War. However the CIA & the British MI6 did train & finance the NATO terrorist cells. That's not speculation, it has been confirmed by members of these NATO armies from different countries. They were often sub-agencies of the existing ("official") secret services, and functioned without the knowledge of the government. Once the existence of these 'secret armies' was finally admitted in 1990 (by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti in Italy's Senate) many politicians wondered if such things were even constitutional. After all, I read a story of an exercise where a "Gladiator" travelled from a British submarine in Norway to Italy using colleagues in other cells, without officially crossing a border or going through customs at any point. It was common for these fascist cells to carry out acst of terrorism & then attribute them to the communists in order to discredit them. It happened all over Europe, which of course isn't a 'smoking gun' but I think it's more than enough to make me suspicious. In the same manner many murders & other acts of violence were attributed to the "marxist" FLQ. Daniele Ganser managed to find out about the existence of these armies in countries that didn't carry out a parliamentary investigation & publish a report, I think it would be possible to find out about Canada's (if it existed) even though our government (same with Britain, the CIA & NATO) have never admitted the existence of Operation Gladio.