[Armyguy]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] [QUOTE]Armageddon<br /> Badsector, what is wrong with increasing Canada's military budget?[/QUOTE]<br /> Nothing but the money will have to be taken from other areas where it's badly needed. Education and health care should take priority.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]When you see CF-18's crashin[/QUOTE]<br /> I am not aware of any CF-18s crashing but even if that happened, it also happens to well funded air forces. The US Airforce lost a transport plane today, it's canope fell off.<br /> What planet are up on, we have had up to 5 crashes, a 2 dead pilots.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]And healthcare really doesn't need more money.[/QUOTE]Which country do you line in again? The Canada I need is badly inneed of investment to health care.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Also, how would education be threatened? Canada has excellent education centres, and always will. Supporting a military is not going to change that.[/QUOTE] It might if it sucks all the money away from more important areas. The US will deend us anyway, they couldn't afford to have such a long border with, say, China.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Never question the efficiency of a military that operates F-18s, Sea Kings, c-130 Hercules and destroyers longer than any other nation before replacing them.[/QUOTE]<br /> Actually, the F18s are pretty up to date aircraft. They are operated by the US airforce and navy as well. In fact, in the US Navy F18s recently replaced their aging Tomcats. There are other air forces that use F18s as well, for instance the Swiss Airforce. The C130s are still good too. The Sea Kings, khm... yes, they need to be replaced.<br /> <br /> The US Airforce and Navy and Swiss have the new Super Hornet, it's alot bigger. Not our old 20yr+ CF18<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Perturbed<br /> NATO could some day be in a conflict with China and we should be ready.[/QUOTE]<br /> China can finish off the US within a week, without firing a shot. All they have to do is cut off the loans to the US government and seize US assets in China. The US dollar would collapse immediately, taking all the Western aconomies with them. They wouldn't be able to fight any wars for centuries to come. It's quite unfortunate that the US goverment has overlooked this obvious point, because the US corporations, who prop them up, wanted to move to China.[/QUOTE]

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] First, I didn't say anything about cost, I said the number of STUDENTS attending post secondary education is higher. However, on that other point:<br /> <br /> "Between 2000 and 2005, the average cost of tuition for students attending four-year public universities jumped 40 percent. Students paid an average of $5,491 for tuition and fees in 2005, up from $3,925 in inflation-adjusted dollars in 2000.<br /> <br /> State college tuition and fees are lowest in Florida, averaging $3,100 at four-year public colleges, and highest in Pennsylvania, averaging $8,410."<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Clearly it is cheaper in florida to go to college than just about anywhere in Canada. The braindead university I went to in the maritimes which only offers liberal arts is now $3800, and it's one of the cheaper ones. That doesn't even include the many faculties at various universities that have been 'privatized', such as many business and computer science programs, where students pay even more. <br /> <br /> <br /> However, we can easily question the military's efficiency without questioning their competence (although anybody who has served knows you can easily do that). Just because technicians work hard at maintaining equipment doesn't mean the organization is remotely close to being efficient. Just because a guy works extra hard to make sure vehicles don't crash doesn't mean anything about the efficient operation of the military. <br /> <br /> However, truth be told I don't really care about military efficiency, I was responding to the guy who thinks SOME bureaucracies should be skinned down while another bureaucracy can simply have more cash thrown at it.<br /> <br /> As the news item says, Canada is at war, so what is the cost of that? What should money be spent on, how do you avoid generals and colonels buying limos instead of choppers, what is the purpose of the vehicles, should they simply be outsourced from other nations, should we even HAVE our military in operation X,etc. Those are question that should be answered by canadians BEFORE more money gets shovelled into the war economy.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> 1 - I never supported the Afghanistan War, I support more military spending for national defence,<br /> <br /> 2 - You are correct about the cost of some things--school like dentistry that used to be 5,000 are now literally 25,000 a year for 3 years! Law school was about 4,000 12 years ago, now it is 14,000-16,000. Mike Harris provincial government deregulated it.<br /> <br /> However, undergraduate tuirtion at a school like U of Toronto or Mcgill is under 5,000 a year, ($1,800 in Quebec for locals) whereas most U.S. state universities it is around 10,000 U.S.......Florida schools may be cheap but they are not known for academics at all--more for sports. Some schools in Florida are probably not worth the degree the paper is printed on. Probably worse than some high schools.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]Nothing but the money will have to be taken from other areas where it's badly needed. Education and health care should take priority.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We should be able to afford both. Defence is a very tiny portion of our budget.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]I am not aware of any CF-18s crashing but even if that happened, it also happens to well funded air forces. The US Airforce lost a transport plane today, it's canope fell off.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> For sure it does....and U.S. Black Hawk and Apache helicopters have crashed a lot. But the question I suppose is why...<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Which country do you line in again? The Canada I need is badly inneed of investment to health care.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We need to get our of our debt crisis first. <a href="http://www.comer.org">here</a><br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> It might if it sucks all the money away from more important areas. The US will deend us anyway, they couldn't afford to have such a long border with, say, China.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The U.S. isn't even defending their own borders from illegal Mexicans.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Actually, the F18s are pretty up to date aircraft. They are operated by the US airforce and navy as well. In fact, in the US Navy F18s recently replaced their aging Tomcats. There are other air forces that use F18s as well, for instance the Swiss Airforce. The C130s are still good too. The Sea Kings, khm... yes, they need to be replaced.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The F-18 is still agreat aircraft but there are many more up-to-date 4.5 and 5th generation aircraft: the Rafale, Eurofighter, F-35 JSF, Saab Gripen and are all for sale. The F-22 and Mig-35 are not for sale. and the Su-27 and Mig-29 are similar in terms of performance and the era they were designed....<br /> <br /> However, the newest version of the F-18 is the larger and longer-range F-18 E-F Super Hornet. This is the plane the Americans are reaplacing their F-14 Tomcats with on their carriers--they are replacing their F-18 C/D version with F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, the STVOL or VTOl version that require less of a runway.<br /> <br /> The problem for Canada is not the F-18 but the age of the aircraft--they needed replacing now and we are waiting until 2017.<br /> <br /> As for the C-130J, again the problem is the age of the planes--they are 40 years old. The new version is the C-130J, here <a href="http://www.c130j.ca">here</a> or we could go with the bigger and better Airbus 400 M - <a href="http://www.airbusmilitary.com">here</a><br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]China can finish off the US within a week, without firing a shot. All they have to do is cut off the loans to the US government and seize US assets in China. The US dollar would collapse immediately, taking all the Western aconomies with them. They wouldn't be able to fight any wars for centuries to come. It's quite unfortunate that the US goverment has overlooked this obvious point, because the US corporations, who prop them up, wanted to move to China.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> The U.S. is indeed controlled by bankers who have enriched and built up China but the U.S. might devalue their currency to help reduce its value in China.<br /> <br /> Technically in a war the U.S. could go into a war economy via executive order and create money and be fighting a war very quickly if it had to....that's what Canada did in W.W. II.<br /> <br />

[Armageddon]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] [QUOTE]Freedom is the right of all sentient beings[/QUOTE]<br /> How do you define freedom?[/QUOTE]<br /> To do as you please, when you please, but I always gotta add without harm to others.<br /> Hm, I personally prefer my Bismarck quote:<br /> "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood."<br /> Besides, I've always hoped no one would call me on that, because that quote is from Transformers. Yeah, I know, immaturish, but I love that quote.<br /> <br />

[badsector]

Military spending % of GDP<br /> United States 3.2<br /> France 2.57<br /> United Kingdom 2.32<br /> Canada 1.1<br /> <br /> Military spending in $<br /> United States $276 billion<br /> France $46 billion<br /> United Kingdom $31 billion<br /> Canada $7.8 billion<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

That's just crazy, Canada has no colonies, and no advantages to military conquest. And is a fraction of the size of those countries. You can see from the following list that comparitively, we can easily say that Canada is paying WAY too much for its military.<br /> <br /> Here:<br /> <br /> Netherlands $6.5 billion <br /> Greece $6.12 billion <br /> Korea, North $5,1 billion<br /> Singapore $4.47 billion <br /> Sweden $4.395 billion<br /> Argentina $4.3 billion <br /> Egypt $4.04 billion <br /> Mexico $4 billion <br /> Poland $3.5 billion <br /> Colombia $3.3 billion <br /> Norway $3.113 billion <br /> Belgium $3,076.5 million <br /> Switzerland $2.548 billion <br /> Pakistan $2,545.5 million <br /> Chile $2.5 billion <br /> Denmark $2.47 billion <br /> Oman $2,424.4 million <br /> Kuwait $1,967.3 million <br /> Algeria $1.87 billion <br /> Finland $1.8 billion <br /> South Africa $1.79 billion <br /> Thailand $1.775 billion <br /> Malaysia $1.69 billion <br /> United Arab Emirates $1.6 billion <br /> Romania $1.5 billion <br /> Austria $1,497.1 mi

[Marcarc]

As for schools, Florida was the low end of the scale, there are plenty in between. The point is that averages are absurd. Take a look at the recent study out that showed that canadian provinces have the worst record for affordability of access to post secondary education. New Brunswick came 57'th and Nova Scotia 58th, that includes ALL US states. Quebec was highest in Canada at 30th. You can have higher tuition costs, but you can also have a lot more sources of funding for it.

[Armageddon]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] That's just crazy, Canada has no colonies, and no advantages to military conquest. And is a fraction of the size of those countries. You can see from the following list that comparitively, we can easily say that Canada is paying WAY too much for its military.<br /> <br /> Here:<br /> <br /> Netherlands $6.5 billion [/quote]<br /> Half of our population, thus half of of our military budget.<br /> <br /> [quote]Greece $6.12 billion[/quote]<br /> A lil over 1/3 of our population, but having half of our military budget. Sounds like their citizens are paying more per capita.<br /> <br /> [quote]Korea, North $5,1 billion[/quote]<br /> I don't even have to look at their population numbers to realize they pay more than 40% of their GDP on their military. We don't even spend 5% of ours.<br /> <br /> [quote]Singapore $4.47 billion[/quote]<br /> After looking at the numbers, 28% of their government's expenditures are military oriented, and they spend about 5% of their GDP on the military. Both indicate they invest far more than Canada does.<br /> <br /> [quote]Sweden $4.395 billion[/quote]<br /> Third of our population, third of our military budget. They pay the same.<br /> <br /> [quote]Argentina $4.3 billion[/quote]<br /> A greater population size, but they also don't produce as much as we do. Thus, I wouldn't expect them to shoulder more costs into defence and war.<br /> <br /> [quote]Egypt $4.04 billion [/quote]<br /> A developing country, so why would they be expected to have a bigger budget? Besides, they'd get funding from the U.S. military when modernizing.<br /> <br /> [quote]Mexico $4 billion [/quote]<br /> See Egypt.<br /> <br /> [quote]Poland $3.5 billion [/quote]<br /> This country seems to look like it's the only country that is close to first-world status and spending less. Congrats on finding one example.<br /> <br /> [quote]Colombia $3.3 billion [/quote]<br /> Why develop a higher budget, when the U.S. government is willing to give the stuff to ya for free? lol, also, they spend more as a percentage of their GDP than we do.<br /> <br /> [quote]Norway $3.113 billion [/quote]<br /> Look at their population. 4,641,500. 1/8 of our own, yet they have a military budget that is 1/4 of ours. You know what that means. They spend a lot more on defence than us, in case you didn't.<br /> <br /> [quote]Belgium $3,076.5 million [/quote]<br /> Congrats, 2nd example of a country that spends less on its military than we do.<br /> <br /> [quote]Switzerland $2.548 billion [/quote]<br /> We spend just a tiny bit more than they do, GDP percentage wise. <br /> <br /> [quote]Pakistan $2,545.5 million [/quote]<br /> Poorest example yet of a country. Don't expect them to pay more for the military.<br /> <br /> I'm not going to respond to the rest merely because most of them look like countries that have either small populations (and thus could not possibly pay more for the military) or are too poor to pay for more of a military.<br /> Yep, two examples won't prove that Canada spend too much on its military. Nice try though.

[Armageddon]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Military spending % of GDP<br /> United States 3.2<br /> France 2.57<br /> United Kingdom 2.32<br /> Canada 1.1<br /> <br /> Military spending in $<br /> United States $276 billion<br /> France $46 billion<br /> United Kingdom $31 billion<br /> Canada $7.8 billion<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> This was when? 6 years ago? Times have changed, and so have budgets.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] That's just crazy, Canada has no colonies, and no advantages to military conquest. And is a fraction of the size of those countries. You can see from the following list that comparitively, we can easily say that Canada is paying WAY too much for its military.<br /> <br /> Here:<br /> <br /> Netherlands $6.5 billion <br /> Greece $6.12 billion <br /> Korea, North $5,1 billion<br /> Singapore $4.47 billion <br /> Sweden $4.395 billion<br /> Argentina $4.3 billion <br /> Egypt $4.04 billion <br /> Mexico $4 billion <br /> Poland $3.5 billion <br /> Colombia $3.3 billion <br /> Norway $3.113 billion <br /> Belgium $3,076.5 million <br /> Switzerland $2.548 billion <br /> Pakistan $2,545.5 million <br /> Chile $2.5 billion <br /> Denmark $2.47 billion <br /> Oman $2,424.4 million <br /> Kuwait $1,967.3 million <br /> Algeria $1.87 billion <br /> Finland $1.8 billion <br /> South Africa $1.79 billion <br /> Thailand $1.775 billion <br /> Malaysia $1.69 billion <br /> United Arab Emirates $1.6 billion <br /> Romania $1.5 billion <br /> Austria $1,497.1 mi[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> How can you be so naive??? Canada also happens to have the second largest territory on earth and a huge neighbour.<br /> <br /> Canada is in the G-8, so we are judged to a different standard. With defence, you can to spend what it takes to do the job. The costs are huge yes, but that is the price of defence. <br /> <br /> Unfortunately, modern weapons systems cost a fortune compared to the old days as they are more complex, but they are necessary if your potential adversaries develop them. You are forced to match them or fall behind. It's a balance of power that some feel actually can prevent war in some cases, not just cause it.

[badsector]

Canada is the second largest country on Earth with one of the smallest populations. There is no way that 32 million people can produce enough wealth to protect this vast land. To do that we would need an army probably half a million strong and equipped with the best weapons. Our GDP couldn't possibly pay for it.<br /> <br /> On the bright side, we don't even have to protect all this land. A would be invader who lands in Yukon would be in the middle of nowhere, thousands of miles away from their homeland, with an impossibly long supply line, over both sea and land. The only area we really have to worry about is the arctic passage. If we redeployed our resources from Bush's phony oil wars to the protection of our arctic, our army would be more than adequate to handle it. On the other hand, if the US wants us to help them kill some civilians half a World away, then the least we can expect in return is that they guarantee our sovereignty.<br /> <br /> I don't know if you are aware of the fact, that Canada is a member of NATO. NATO is a military allience. It's constitution says that if any NATO member is attacked by an external enemy, all the other alliance members help that country with their entire military capability, which includes the mighty US and a few other major military powers, equipped with all kinds of WMDs and huge fianncial potential.<br /> <br /> We don't need to spend any more on our military. The army is a special interest group, it lobbies for more money on the expense of others.<br /> <br />

[Armyguy]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Canada is the second largest country on Earth with one of the smallest populations. There is no way that 32 million people can produce enough wealth to protect this vast land. To do that we would need an army probably half a million strong and equipped with the best weapons. Our GDP couldn't possibly pay for it.<br /> <br /> On the bright side, we don't even have to protect all this land. A would be invader who lands in Yukon would be in the middle of nowhere, thousands of miles away from their homeland, with an impossibly long supply line, over both sea and land. The only area we really have to worry about is the arctic passage. If we redeployed our resources from Bush's phony oil wars to the protection of our arctic, our army would be more than adequate to handle it. On the other hand, if the US wants us to help them kill some civilians half a World away, then the least we can expect in return is that they guarantee our sovereignty.<br /> <br /> I don't know if you are aware of the fact, that Canada is a member of NATO. NATO is a military allience. It's constitution says that if any NATO member is attacked by an external enemy, all the other alliance members help that country with their entire military capability, which includes the mighty US and a few other major military powers, equipped with all kinds of WMDs and huge fianncial potential.<br /> <br /> We don't need to spend any more on our military. The army is a special interest group, it lobbies for more money on the expense of others.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> I you knew anything, our army is too small to do any real protection. So what would you do with the money? Give it to the Welfare bums. WE could have a military of over 400,000 and substain it. <br /> I pay taxes and if I had a chose. I cut off welfare and have all the single welfare moms and the old dopers picking shit up in the parks. <br /> I don't support welfare, but I have to give to it. <br /> We are the only nation on earth that does not pull it's weight. <br /> And get rid of the NDP, and their Commie party.

[Diogenes]

I for one enjoy deciphering your ill conceived notions; for it is rare to see the illiterate consistently embarrass themselves with the fervour as you.<br /> And what of the corporate welfare bums armyguy?<br /> Can you speak out against them as well? <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Canada is the second largest country on Earth with one of the smallest populations. There is no way that 32 million people can produce enough wealth to protect this vast land. To do that we would need an army probably half a million strong and equipped with the best weapons. Our GDP couldn't possibly pay for it.<br /> <br /> On the bright side, we don't even have to protect all this land. A would be invader who lands in Yukon would be in the middle of nowhere, thousands of miles away from their homeland, with an impossibly long supply line, over both sea and land. The only area we really have to worry about is the arctic passage. If we redeployed our resources from Bush's phony oil wars to the protection of our arctic, our army would be more than adequate to handle it. On the other hand, if the US wants us to help them kill some civilians half a World away, then the least we can expect in return is that they guarantee our sovereignty.<br /> <br /> I don't know if you are aware of the fact, that Canada is a member of NATO. NATO is a military allience. It's constitution says that if any NATO member is attacked by an external enemy, all the other alliance members help that country with their entire military capability, which includes the mighty US and a few other major military powers, equipped with all kinds of WMDs and huge fianncial potential.<br /> <br /> We don't need to spend any more on our military. The army is a special interest group, it lobbies for more money on the expense of others.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> The army is much more than a special interest group, it is defensive, not simply offensive. Yes Afghanistan is likely B.S. but the army is still there to defend us if we need it.<br /> <br /> As for us having a "tiny population", slight exaggeration. I mean, we're not Norway with 5 million people, and a larger territory makes you stronger than you would be otherwise as it did for Russia under the Czar, which is why Israel is under constant danger despite having such a big military.<br /> <br /> I mean come on, it is about SKILL and amility, not just numbers. Brazil has 180 million people, that is 6 TIMES Canada's population, with a huge, resource-rich territory, yet they have a crappy military and are a weak country, while we are a G-8 country, Brazil is a crappy, weak third-world nation like Venezuela. Without the global economy, Brazil would be nothing at all and not have the economic clout they currently do. <br /> <br />

[Armyguy]

[QUOTE BY= Diogenes] I for one enjoy deciphering your ill conceived notions; for it is rare to see the illiterate consistently embarrass themselves with the fervour as you.<br /> And what of the corporate welfare bums armyguy?<br /> Can you speak out against them as well? <br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> You do, o thanks. I have to ask though. Where do you people get your info? Macleans?local news?. Damn most news papers call a personal carrier a tank. <br /> One dumb reporter from BC had an article about our subs. He posted they also carry missles. Because he read all subs have missles. Well this reporter, was allowed on one of our subs. Hen't he feel dumb after. It is the wrong info, that makes people have the wrong idea about the military.