[Dr Caleb]

I think before we decide on a role for the military, we need to re-write our forgien policy, and then decide what role the military will play in that.<p> <br />We are really really good at certain things - and our Coyote survillance vehicles are then envy of many nations - very high tech!<p> <br />

[Dr Caleb]

On a side note - nice <a href='http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=1c69b0b3-74cd-4ad9-b4e1-dd05420400da'>ride!</a><p>

[Calumny]

Okay, so when do you anticipate you'll be able to get to the rewriting of foreign policy stuff. <br /> <br />And where can I get one of those vehicles? <br /> <br />Forget it, I'm near Petawawa. Learned some new tricks with that bic pen idea you suggested.

[whelan costen]

Actually I think we have a military which is well trained, and extremely diplomatic for the most part, that is why they work well as Peace-keepers, I think that the Canadian people are led to believe they are not as great as they are, to keep us feeling like wimps. We ought to be really proud of what we have, but we need to supply them better, they should be able to fly into an area, north, south, east or west, especially in Canada to aid during disasters, etc. <br /> <br />Also agree with Dr. Caleb we need a better Foreign policy written for Canadians by Canadians. We need to be clear that our role is the right one for us, and not just piggy-backing on someone elses agenda.

[Kobuchi]

I think we have a responsibility to protect, overseas, and we do it well. Our ally complicates this by inviting us to join in Operation Iron Fist or Operation Midnight Dagger or whatever. So it's very useful we can plea inadequacy when it comes to night vision stealth bombing and other adventures in these favoured tactics of his. Otherwise, we'd have to refuse on moral grounds, which would make him mad. <br /> <br />We need to enhance our capacity to defend and aid, while preserving a calculated impotence at slaughter and hostility. <br /> <br />*** <br /> <br />We should assert sovereignty over the Northwest Passage. This fabled friggin sea route is opening up [I]now[/I] after 5000 years - I mean opening this very year. We have to move on this one, and step on toes if necessary.

[z_whalen]

This is my idea for Canadian foreign policy and Canada's Military: <br /> <br /><b>1. To some extent, mend relations with USA</b> <br />Canadians like to forget that if it wasn't for the United States, we probably wouldn't exist. America is our big brother to the South and has been watching out for us, like it or not. Canada needs a stronger military presence to demonstrate to the United States that we can look out for ourselves, therefore increasing our sovereignty. Having a strong military doesn't mean we will be dragged into every US-led war, but it does mean we will be a valued participant when when we deem it fit to lend a hand in the war on terror. <br /> <br /><b>2. Have a military trained for war.</b> <br />Peacekeeping is just one part of being a soldier. Good soldiers are trained in full-spectrum warfare, able to keep the peace, as well as fight a war. Therefore, good soldiers make good peacekeepers. An army needs to be flexible, ready for anything. Sometimes peacekeeping breaks down. Our soldiers need to be able to defend themselves and others in a time of conflict. Unfortunately, many Canadians would rather see their military specialised in peacekeeping. Unfortunately, this military would be completely unable to defend itself in a crisis. <br /> <br /><b>3. More support to UN peacekeeping missions.</b> <br />We Canadian like to gloat that we are the world's peacemakers, when in reality, Canadian support to UN peacekeeping is at an all-time low, due to an over-stretched and underfunded military. In this era of tension and instability, peacekeeping missions need our full support. We must first rebuild our military into a fighting force capable of keeping everything under control. Secondly, we must back our forces with swift diplomatic action to resolve conflicts and reduce tensions. A strong military will give us more clout. <br /> <br />

[whelan costen]

Quote by whalen: '1. To some extent, mend relations with USA <br />Canadians like to forget that if it wasn't for the United States, we probably wouldn't exist. America is our big brother to the South and has been watching out for us, like it or not.' <br /> <br />I agree with most of what you posted except the quote above...how do you figure we wouldn't exist? I don't see that at all, we fought against the U.S. in order to preserve ourselves, we won, we are; we are not being protected from someone else by the U.S., because we are not a threat to anyone else. The U.S. is creating enemies faster than rabbits can reproduce, which is why they need us to legitimize their invasions, their wars and now their BMD. Which is also why, we need a stronger military to protect Canadians, not U.S. interests! Other than that statement, I agree. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'>

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Quote by whalen: '1. To some extent, mend relations with USA <br />Canadians like to forget that if it wasn't for the United States, we probably wouldn't exist. America is our big brother to the South and has been watching out for us, like it or not.' <br /> <br />I agree with most of what you posted except the quote above...how do you figure we wouldn't exist? I don't see that at all, we fought against the U.S. in order to preserve ourselves, we won, we are; we are not being protected from someone else by the U.S., because we are not a threat to anyone else. The U.S. is creating enemies faster than rabbits can reproduce, which is why they need us to legitimize their invasions, their wars and now their BMD. Which is also why, we need a stronger military to protect Canadians, not U.S. interests! Other than that statement, I agree. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />That wasn't a Canadian victory it was a British one. I would hardly call it a victory by any means <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> You take way too much pride in our nations past accomplishments <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br />fact is we are tied with America if America falters we falter. A drop in improts by America could kill us as has been viewed with recent cattle, potato, and softwood lumber disputes. It would not take an army to cripple Canada merely a couple of extra minutes of waiting at the border would do the trick. <br /> <br />the fact is we need to jump on the bandwagon with the Untied States and increase military spednign ebcause it is in our interests to do so. canada can never equal too the power of the United States because we don't have the industrial abse or the population to do so. What we can do though is make sure we have enough power so that we can participate actively at the discussion table and throw in our point of view. (we have not been doing so well at this in recent years) <br /> <br />Missile defence and Opening of the northwest passage are going to be things that affect us deeply in the next few years. We need to jump no the bandwagon or face leaving north American defence on wholely on Americas shoulders and this would be a grave mistake because it would only decrease our sovereignty. Recently our alck of military presence in the North ahs allowed many things to go unchecked and the Americans recently sent ships unimpeded through the northwest passage. <br /> <br />This is very disturbing and if we truly care about sovereignty we would have military presence in the north. the same goes for NA defens. If we really care we will jump on the bandwagon and make sure our concerns are heard isntead of just blowing off anything the United States says.

[whelan costen]

Stymiest quote: 'That wasn't a Canadian victory it was a British one. I would hardly call it a victory by any means Wink You take way too much pride in our nations past accomplishments Smile ' <br /> <br />You can call it whatever you want because it is our history and at the time we were British but we didn't want to be American and therefore we fought, hell we burned the White House, and you say it wasn't a victory, I think it was! I take pride in my Nation period, but I do agree that our politicians have sold us out on the military, it started with the Avrow Arrow and it hasn't stopped since, I agree we need more troops, more supplies and we need to defend this nation, land, air and ocean, but that doesn't mean I don't get it, it just means we haven't stood up to our politicians loudly enough, yet. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[z_whalen]

If the United States were burned at the stake, Canada would be tied to the either side, whether we like it or not. Think of the cold war. At times, our government flirted with neutrality, leaving the defense of North America to the United States with little help from us. Then it was clear whose side we should have been on. Now, fear is running rampant South of the border, but some of it is justified. The threat of terrorism is real no matter what anyone says, and now Americans are concerned with defending the homeland and rooting out the terrorists. Though some of their actions may be unjust, they are far from the evil empire that Canadians and others make them out to be. We forget that if it wasn't for Americans, who would raise the banner against terrorists and take the initiative. Terrorism is a global threat, even we are not invincible. Mending relations with the US doesn't mean siding with them all the time, it means being capable of guarding the North, and assisting in the ongoing struggle against extremists of all flags. It also means putting an end to unreasonable hate of all things American. We can no longer define ourselves by anti-Americanism, we must define ourselves with real nationalism and Canadian interests. A better military gives us more freedom and more sovereignty because America will no longer need to or be capable of going over our heads. This will give us much more clout when dealing with them and perhaps the oppurtunity to talk a little sense into our old friends to the South.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Stymiest quote: 'That wasn't a Canadian victory it was a British one. I would hardly call it a victory by any means Wink You take way too much pride in our nations past accomplishments Smile ' <br /> <br />You can call it whatever you want because it is our history and at the time we were British but we didn't want to be American and therefore we fought, hell we burned the White House, and you say it wasn't a victory, I think it was! I take pride in my Nation period, but I do agree that our politicians have sold us out on the military, it started with the Avrow Arrow and it hasn't stopped since, I agree we need more troops, more supplies and we need to defend this nation, land, air and ocean, but that doesn't mean I don't get it, it just means we haven't stood up to our politicians loudly enough, yet. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Let me let you in on a little secret.... We lvoe to pride ourselves on our Avro Arrow so much but the fatc was the whole program was a big fat waste of money. It was militarily and economically not a very good investment. <br /> <br />Firstly the Arrow cost a whooping 12 million dollars to build. Similar nations were using fighters that cost rougly 700,000$ meaning they could put 17 planes in the air too our one. Sure the Avro was technologically superior but the fact is it was just not militarily our economically viable. Another thing that compounded the program was the fact that everything just had to be canadian built and nothign was ever good enough. Plans were changed numerously eventually the plane became so expensive to build that it just wasn;t viable for a small country to continue funding. <br /> <br />The Avro program was a huge waste of money. When we could of been investing in upgrading our military's equipment and improving our troops quality of lfie we wasted billions upon billions of dollars on a program that never got past the test phase.

[canuck]

The thing you over-look is the fact that the Arrow was over 90% completed and it was nearing to the point where mass production could begin. What a waste... To spend so much money and time on this investment just for it to be sold for scrap metal. <br /> <br />Do you think the billions the Americans spent on landing a man on the moon didn't add to the dept that they still have yet to pay to this day? And here you are crying about money spent 50 years ago on a jet! It's exactly these types of government projects that stimulate technological and economic progress but instead, all of that talent and experience went south.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= Canuck] The thing you over-look is the fact that the Arrow was over 90% completed and it was nearing to the point where mass production could begin. What a waste... To spend so much money and time on this investment just for it to be sold for scrap metal. <br /> <br />Do you think the billions the Americans spent on landing a man on the moon didn't add to the dept that they still have yet to pay to this day? And here you are crying about money spent 50 years ago on a jet! It's exactly these types of government projects that stimulate technological and economic progress but instead, all of that talent and experience went south. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />comparing the avro arrow project too the apollo moon mission is like comparing 100 million dolalrs with 10 billion. I think you people overlook the fact that the Arrow was infact a gigantic waste of money. No country would of bought it anyways like i said why 1 avro arrow in the skjy when u can put 17 others their. The Arrow was built the intercept soviet heavy bombers but the fact is the soviet union bomber force was not very credible because by the time the avro was ready to be put into production the soviet union was investing in ICBMs (Intercontinental ballistic Missile systems). The Soviets had also designed a plane too intercept American heavy Bombers called the MIG 25 Foxbat (It would be used to intercept a new age of American heavy bomber and had a lot of similarities to the Arrow). <br /> <br />Unfortunately the Arrow would of made a great interceptor but the threat from the Soviet ICBM forces was far greater. So the Arrow was not needed. <br /> <br />it doesn't matter if we have 100 arrows in the sky (The price for that would of been 1.2 billion and thats tonnes for 1960s military). Now the enemy could of fielded 1700 fighter/interceptors for our 100 does that make any sense too you. <br /> <br />get what I am saying quantity is a quality people <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

[z_whalen]

I can't believe you all bought the story that the arrow was bullied all the way to the scrap heap by the Americans. Goes to show how close-minded and gullible the people on this forum are getting to be. I hope you all sleep better bullshitting yourselves that it was the American's fault and not ours for wasting millions of dollars on a fighter that had no practical implementations.

[Tristan]

The Avro was not just an expense - it was also an opportunity. <br /> <br />Few technological revolutions start off making money. Indeed, many military innovations come at a great expense. <br /> <br />The shame is that we could have been a world leader. We could have turned the project around. <br /> <br />As for the role of the military - I think its primary role should be to protecting our sovereignty, our nation, and its citizens. <br /> <br />There are claims being made by other nations on land in our North. If we can't put a few soldiers up there to keep things technical, I see that as a failure on the part of our military. No nation should be able to challenge our established borders.