[Perturbed]

Michou, there are more French schools in Ontario than English schools in Quebec.

I think the problem michou is that because English is a language of commerce, there is no economic incentive for most people to learn French.

Also, it is impossible to be bilingual if you don't live in a culture. They don't teach French well in Ontario.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Perturbed]

Hi Spud. I can tell you that in Ontario, Catholic schools often teach French as early as grade 1 or even kindergarten, right through to grade 9, then it becomes optional.

In public schools, it varies. Some start as late as grade 7, but usually no later than grade 3 or 4.

Basically, the problem with the way they teach French is it is mostly verb conjugations.

I took French for 10 years and I still can't carry on a simply conversation, because the way they teach French it is nearly impossible to learn and retain it. Immersion is better, but most don't get that.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Spud]

Thanks Perturbed.

[Perturbed]

Hi The Saint. Don't go anywhere. We need more people like you on Vive.

Thank you. Multiculturalism gives minorities protection at the expense of majority protection. Of course there are exceptions and contradictions in any country, but we have to start respecting the majority. We have to tell them it is okay to be Canadian and stand up for themselves.

I realize some hard Quebec nationalists will never be appeased, but I think what most bothered separatists about Trudeau was official multiculturalism, not bilingualism. A lot of French Canadians said to English Canadians, "aren't you worried about getting assimilated?" Well, the French were a little more willing to fight it.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Angus McCracken]

It's hard for some to support their position unless they paint English Canadians in a negative light by holding their ancestors past actions against them.

You tell me to read the Black Book of English Canada and then get back to you. Do you honestly think I'm not aware of my own history? Is your opinion of English Canadians that low for you to believe that we're completely ignorant of our own past and who we are as a people?

I don't have to sit here and defend myself to you, I've already done that. I've already stated for the record that the English nations have been (and sadly continue to be) guilty of supressing, opressing, and exploiting other nations and peoples in Canada, and across the globe. But as I said, you only stand to benifit by painting me and the rest of us as being intolerant and ignorant racists. But, to be blunt, in English we'd say you're "taking the piss".

I grew up in a city of 50,000 people that had a large Francophone population. Everything was in French; they had their own schools, restaurants, shops, churches, and community centre. Visiting this section of town was like visiting Quebec (and yes I have visited Quebec). No one felt threatened, when I spoke with them they always told me that they had everything they needed. And yes, they spoke English as well. Somehow, this French enclave survived and thrived in the heart of English Canada, 20 minutes from the American border.

Look, there are many in both English Canada and French Canada who mistakenly feel threatened by official bilingualism and official multiculturalism. But silencing them, or branding them as being intolerant or even racist only complicates the situation further.

American culture threatenes Canadian English culture, Canadian English culture threatens French and First Nations culture that is the food chain in North America. I never once said it's right, in fact I have said all along that it is wrong.

I highlight the case in English Canada for two reasons. One, those English Canada who feel threatened by American culture need to see how the other cultures of this country (French and First Nations) feel threatened in the same way by English Canada (and let's not forget the Americans).

Two, for those in French Canada need to realise that many in English Canada feel the same way about their own culture as do the French in Quebec, New Bruinswick, and elsewhere. Even though English Canada is not dealing with it at the same magnitude, their culture and language can not be devalued and they should not be insulted or ignored.

This is what we call empathy. I was trying to make both sides see the other's position and point of view, so that they may see that their situations are not that dissimilar after all.

We have a lot to offer each other. But we can't have one culture benifiting at the expense of the other. I have always spoken about equality. About trying to officially protect, enhance, and encourage the development of BOTH identities that make up this country of ours. And let's not forget the First Nations people or the Celtic culture of the maratimes.

And to michou and gaulois, you'll have to do a lot better if you think you can make me turn tail and run. I'm staying right where I am and I look forward to hearing more from both of you in the future. I'm perfectly happy in this "user friendly" forum.

And by the way, in English using "my friend" to refer to someone in conversation is a polite way to refer to someone who is being rude. I'm sorry, but I never once considered you to be my friend.

[Calumny]

<blockquote>Two, for those in French Canada need to realise that many in English Canada feel the same way about their own culture as do the French in Quebec, New Bruinswick, and elsewhere. Even though English Canada is not dealing with it at the same magnitude, their culture and language can not be devalued and they should not be insulted or ignored.</blockquote> Believe me, Angus, there are endless forums threads dealing with this exact topic. Francophones raise this exact point in reference to the battle to retain Canadian sovereignty, i.e., some Canadians are desirous of retaining the values and identity important to them but, at the same time fail to 'empathize' with a Francophone desire to do the same.<br><br> The important thing to remember is that all of us are people trying to make our way in the world as best we can and who in most cases share the same core values and aspirations for both ourselves and our families. While we may differ in our views as to how best this may be accomplished, we don't differ a whole heck of a lot under the skin. So, it's in all our best interests to try listening to what the other person is really saying, and relate that to our own feelings of what is important to us.<br><br> <p>---<br>"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).<br />

[Dino]

I can't think of anytime that english speaking Canadians are dominating Quebec with our tv shows,movies and culture. There seems to always be this fear that Quebec is going to be destroyed unless they become a country. That is a bunch of bull. The thing that will threaten Quebec's language and culture is an intergrated North America and guess who supports an intergrated north america?! Gilles Duceppe and le Bloc Quebecois!

[Perturbed]

"Look, there are many in both English Canada and French Canada who mistakenly feel threatened by official bilingualism and official multiculturalism."


Bilingualism doesn't threaten me, but I'll have to keep disagreeing about official multiculturalism. That's a different kettle of fish.

We're not mistakenly threatened by multiculturalism. I grew up with multiculturalism. Most of my friends as a kid were non-caucasian. I loved multiculturalism. Now I feel differently because I'm no longer 8 years old.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Calumny]

Perturbed, actually, it might be more accurate to say 'because you live in Toronto'.

A lot of Vive participants just won't be able to understand your perspective re: 'multi-culturalism' failures or warping of intent because they didn't grow up in Toronto and haven't seen the changes that have occurred there over the last forty years or so, or perhaps have never visited the place, so they imagine it as being a big Edmonton, Winnipeg, etc.. Unfortunately, rather than outlining your concerns in a rational way, you tend to run off at the mouth at times and come across as a racist, which I choose to believe you aren't.

The concept of multi-culturalism is good, as we can learn a lot from each other's cultures and hopefully use the best from each to create a better society from all of us. However, the implementation of 'multi-culturalism' in places like Toronto has to some extent proven disastrous.

I think that Canadians have a right to question the values of their society and work for change. However, I don't believe Canadian society is under any obligation to change its values to align with those of people who made a conscious choice to relocate to Canada.

This is where to my mind we we got off track years ago. From my perspective, anyone immigrating to Canada should have some idea of the culture they're getting themselves into, so if they're offended by Christmas trees, etc., maybe they'd be better off elsewhere. It should not be incumbent upon Canadians to change their own societal values solely for the purpose of not giving some perceived offense to others who have chosen to join that society.

Funny thing is, I don't think most of the more contentious issues ever arose in immigrant communities, being rather the creation of politicians seeking votes from those communities.

You shouldn't be made to feel a stranger in your own land. But, if you're doing so, you're better off placing the blame on the shoulders of the federal government than immigrants.

For the record, most of the people in the federal government aren't idiots. So, if you think the situation in some parts of Canada has happened because no one knew what they were doing, think again.

As to some of your comments toward Quebec sovereignists, you should be thinking more in terms of how their situation parallels your own. And before you start throwing around insults, it should occur to you that your comments can easily be reproduced or displayed to demonstrate to those Quebecois on the fence re: Quebec sovereignty the attitude of the 'ROC' towards Quebec and in doing so support Quebec sovereignist goals.





---
"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).

[Perturbed]

"For the record, most of the people in the federal government aren't idiots. So, if you think the situation in some parts of Canada has happened because no one knew what they were doing, think again.
As to some of your comments toward Quebec sovereignists, you should be thinking more in terms of how their situation parallels your own. And before you start throwing around insults, it should occur to you that your comments can easily be reproduced or displayed to demonstrate to those Quebecois on the fence re: Quebec sovereignty the attitude of the 'ROC' towards Quebec and in doing so support Quebec sovereignist goals."


Just to clarify Calumny, I do place the blame on politicians, Mulroney more than Trudeau and anyone else involved. I don't blame immigrants for the problem, but I do find it offensive when the odd newcomer gets on their "high-horse" and tries to run the place. I live here and it happens, and the people who run the media rarely criticize it. They often defend it.

As for Quebec separatists, I respect the fact that French is not the dominant language on this contineny, but I think that hard-line separatists usually beat me when it comes to being rude, irrational, and destructive. I don't have any desire to eliminate the French language, but I also recognize that French-Canadians are not oppressed relatively speaking or under any imminent threat. Their language is fine. Let's be honest. Scotland didn't lose its culture when it became part of Great Britain.

As for being perceived as "racist", I quite honestly was one of those "anti-racists" when I was younger. I hated anyone who questioned multiculturalism. I wanted equality, Canadian unity, etcettera, but I'm more knowledgeable now about how things work in practice.

The mere fact that democratic discussion can be labelled "racist", "sexist" or whatever shows us how much liberalism has actually made us less free, more controlled. If democracy is racist, and totalitarianism is equality, then.....

I didn't want to even talk about multilculturalism, but then the Globe and Mail barely criticized it on their front cover story, and I had had enough. If we don't start being honest about these things, we'll lose any democracy we had. Some people have to ge the ball rolling, and they already have, and I thank them for it.



---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Action-Jackson]

What language do they speak in Scotland?

---
If you don't like these ideas, I've got others. --Marshall McLuhan

[Calumny]

<blockquote>Scotland didn't lose its culture when it became part of Great Britain.</blockquote>

True enough however, many Scots have also been seeking independance.

Oddly enough, Canada as created by our politicians the past many years is curiously reminiscent of one of the Star Trek episodes where some powerful race of beings stick some federation member in with three or four other species and most of the episode sees them trying to kill one another, before ultimately realizing the commonalities they share are greater than that which they share with the entities that put them into the situation. Got to love old Gene.

As concerns 'but I think that hard-line separatists usually beat me when it comes to being rude, irrational, and destructive', this isn't true for all and where it is there's a reason for it. As the old martial arts movies should have taught us, the person that loses their head generally loses the fight.






---
"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).

[Calumny]

English and Celtic, though the latter is, shall we say, threatened. Lowland Scots are often not Scot in descent, being more your English and Viking types.

Ireland is English and Gaelic (Celtic).

Wales is English and some gutteral gibberish termed 'Welsh'.

Interestingly enough, Finnish and Basque are (last time I read) two European tongues for which no root can be determined, i.e., all other European languages can be traced back to a root tongue but, not these.



---
"When we are in the middle of the paradigm, it is hard to imagine any other paradigm" (Adam Smith).

[Guest]

<p>Perturbed wrote : <i> If we don't start being honest about these things, we'll lose any democracy we had.</i><p> Isn't there an incoherence somewhere here when one speaks of honesty and democracy right after stating that sending an army to stop a decision made by popular vote is acceptable and justified ? In my way of seeing things, it has a familiar ring to the democracy preached by Bush about Iraq. I call it incoherent, Orwell calls it doublespeak. If this is Canadians idea of what democracy is, which I don’t believe it is, Québecers have another just cause to separate as quickly as possible. Honest. <p> Angus McCracken wrote : <i>And by the way, in English using "my friend" to refer to someone in conversation is a polite way to refer to someone who is being rude. I'm sorry, but I never once considered you to be my friend. </i><p> And by the way Angus, I thank you for correcting my English comprehension of "friends" and how it is expressed. I've been busily sending off e-mails to my British, American and Canadian friends (oops) this afternoon, apologizing for having falsely called them 'my friend' all these years. I overestimated my English fluency and should have been more careful. I'll forever be indebted to you for straightening me out. <p> Oh, and though both ways are used to poke the one it is meant for, it was my understanding that being sarcastic was not synomymous with rudeness. (Oh gosh, more e- mails ! :O )<p> To Angus and Perturbed, I’m truly pleased you have found each other but I have no desire to rehash the same olde. You know, « been there, done that, heard it all » kinda thing ? Whenever the issue of Québec’s future independance creeps up, I don’t believe we’ll cross paths too often. Perturbed and I go back a little ways and and we've both learned that we don’t usually fit very well on the same threads. It can quickly become disagreeable for everyone else. Call it attraction in reverse. (Am I being sarcastic or rude ? Who cares, eh ? )

[Perturbed]

I realize many Scots want independence, but I think that we also have to consider economics, as boring as they may be they do govern the world right now.

As for your reference to the fight, I liked it. I simply don't see a middle ground. Maybe Quebec will separate some day, I doubt it, but if they do, it would be because our federal government chose to let Quebec separate. Their weak leadership is the problem. In the case of a separatist debate, one side inevitably wins, whether it is in their best interest or not.

If Canada loses Quebec, it will be because we didn't do to Quebec what the French did to the Basques--refuse to let them have any opportunity to endanger the unity of the country. There comes a time where playing nice just never works.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat