[Perturbed]

"Perturbed, in regards to Slovakia, Québec's economy and natural ressources are already in a better position than Slovakia was before its dissolution from Czechoslovakia. I don't think the comparison has much value to us here."

Quebec can buy resources, but it doesn't have much, unless you mean very young softwood trees and waterfalls. It could develop its economy, but that would better be accomplished in the stability of the Canadian federation, with the help of the federal government. That way you could use resources from the rest of Canada, and we could get some east-west trading going on.


"What I still don't get, even after almost a year on Vive, is why Canada would be so destabilized should Québecers choose independance ? If no Canadians freak out and do something stupid, if they control themselves and negotiate in good faith what IS the problem?"


You mean if you Canadians opposed you? When two opposing sides disagree so much, there really is no middle ground, Legally separation is illegal, so there would be a conflict, no matter which side won. If could be legal, political, mlitary, who knows. It would be a big mess, and would weaken an already troubled country.



"Like you said, we have no oil fields, no major auto industries to speak of. Staunch federalists are usually the first ones to say that Québec is the one who would lose out, not Canada. So where does this fear of being gobbled up by the U.S. comes from ?"


Because they own a huge part of our economy. I think what we mean michou is that we would both lose. Canada would lose too, but Quebec might lose even more.


"You know what ? Maybe an independant Québec is EXACTLY what Canadians need to bring them out of their political apathy, find a common will and a culture worth fighting for."

An independent Quebec would make it easier for America to bully Quebec's economy. I think English Canadians simply need better leadership. Maybe 1995 woke some people up, but we are still to nice, docile.


---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Spud]

Ok.Is this a good idea or am I out to lunch?
I took french in school many years ago and could never remember enough to speak it.Perturbed told me the problem was verb conjugations.Immersion is better.
So,our school system sucks,has way too much waste,why don`t we just get immersion right across the country?That would actually put some of our tax dollars to work in the school system.Kids in english Canada learn french,and kids in french Canada learn english.There is nothing wrong with learning another language.How about getting french teachers from Quebec to come out west,and western teachers to go to Quebec?Maybe we should forget the cultural thing and just learn the language?

[michou]

Perturbed wrote: <i> Legally separation is illegal</i> <p> and I say, <i>Illegally separation is legal</i><p>Laws are meant to be done and undone. Laws are man-made, they change according to his wishes and I know what you wish Perturbed. <p>---<br>« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d'être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron <br />

[Perturbed]

Laws are mostly not undone. We can thank our laws for the fact that we live in a stable, peaceful society for the most part. I'm not an anarchist, you're right about that.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[Perturbed]

I'm interested in what people think about this.

Personally, I think the problem is simply a lack of political support. Forcing people to be immersed in another language may work for some, but might be seen as going too far. It might make the siutation even worse.

I think support for French in Ontario has improved with many different French programs and schools, as it used to be almost zero, but I think support for mandatory immersion would be luke warm at best in Ontario, and almost zero in the west.

I think if we had more opportunities to speak French it would be a good thing--more exchange programs, more trips for school kids around the country, as the Katimavik program emphasizes for young adults. This would have to go both ways. Montreal is one city where both languages are spoken in large numbers...


I think though the interaction is Montreal has lessened linguistic tensions, it would still take a political solution to put an end to the seriousness of the separatist issue.

---
The midget, Bush, and that Rumsfield deserve only to be beaten with shoes by freedom loving people everywhere.

- Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, The Iraqi Informat

[michou]

<p><i>You can muffle the drum, and you can loosen the strings of the lyre, but who shall command the skylark not to sing? </i> K. Gibran <p> Hmmm....I have never thought of myself as being an anarchist before. I had always thought I was a rare Québec bird. <p>---<br>« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d'être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron <br />

[Dino]

I agree with spud. It should be mandatory that people in english Canada learn french. French should be the only language taught in english Canada so that people at least can read the language and be encouraged to watch radio-canada to learn it better.

[gaulois]

***going off track the original topic*** <br> Don't think that shoving French down the throat in the ROC is a good idea. There has to be more of a pull toward French. I think the French/Québécois/Acadian culture should be much better promoted in the ROC in order to do so; it will like produce much better results than bilingual feds IMHO. People in the ROC need to realize they are missing something precious by not being able to read and listen to French. The written and spoken stuff is much more challenging as far as I am concerned. We need to be far more practical about this bilingualism. <br> For instance, check this Le Monde Diplomatique news story coverage on Le Canard in regards to interoperating with languages in Europe. <br> http://lecanardreincarne.freesoul.ca/news.php?item.60 <blockquote> Comme le dit Umberto Eco, « une Europe de polyglottes n'est pas une Europe de personnes qui parlent couramment de nombreuses langues, mais, dans le meilleur des cas, de personnes qui peuvent se rencontrer en parlant chacune sa propre langue et en comprenant celle de l'autre, sans pour autant être capable de la parler couramment (9) ». Introduire l'intercompréhension des langues romanes dès le primaire, c'est d'emblée donner aux enfants le plaisir d'accéder à la compréhension de deux ou trois autres langues d'Europe. </blockquote> <p>---<br>"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

[Guest]

Do you mean it is more challenging than English?

[gaulois]

Yes French is more difficult to learn than English. Just too many bloody exceptions... Our environment (at least commercial) is also English. That also does not help. From strictly a money perspective, it might make more sense to learn Chinese, Japanese, Indian or even Spanish.
So the commitment required to learn French has to be much higher. Again I think that People would be better off focusing on learning to read and to listen the language rather than to speak it or write it. I hope BTW that you are starting to check these Le Devoir headlines now available on Vive. And la SRC Espace Musique plays excellent music on the radio (but this is probably a personal taste).

---
"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

[Guest]

Yeah but galuois, many immgrants say English is very hard too. A lot of exceptions in English.

[gaulois]

Much more exceptions in French: we conjugate verbs and we have a gender for words (la pomme -vs- le pomme). It makes no sense to me and I could not stand Mlle Tremblay on this matter in grade 3 Would not want to shove this down the throat on anyone (did not mean la pomme).

The Return On Investment (ROI) on English is much higher than French. The ROI probably protects French from Japanese and Chinese really taking over here on the West Coast; most companies however already operate here in Chinese. French is almost fringe. By the same token the ROI for a franco is higher to learn English (-vs- an anglo learning French)m hence a huge incentive for parents to give that competing "edge" to their kids; this is really what this original story was all about. But then there is more to life than commerce, or is there? We need to figure out a way to get a lower ROI when angloes pick up French (and stick to it over times). I will say spend a month in Southern France and that should help. Trois-Pistoles does not quite compare unfortunately, with all respect for the Trois-Pistoles folks.

---
"We are all in this together somehow, some more than others somehow"

[Spud]

Perhaps we should pressure the political parties to make french/english mandatory in grade 1,after all kids learn better at that age.Maybe we just need to actually start learning how to be bilingual,not just talking about it.I wish I had been able to grasp the language years ago.Hell I might even have another go at it now.
The french culture is doing pretty good in some places in Manitoba,not sure about the rest of the prairies.

[michou]

<p>Spud wrote : <i>The french culture is doing pretty good in some places in Manitoba,not sure about the rest of the prairies</i><p> This is a most interesting comment Spud. Do you have more information about this ? I wonder if some are members on this site. It would be nice to read their perspective on bilingualism and the future of French in Canada.<p>---<br>« Il y a une belle, une terrible rationalité dans la décision d'être libre. » - Gérard Bergeron <br />

[Spud]

Michou,in Winnipeg there is St.Boniface which is the french part,and seems to do very well.Alot of french,yet a lot of english.To me it appears to be working very well.
If you go south of Winnipeg to the smaller farming communities like St.Pierre,there is a lot of french as well.Perhaps because that part of the country is isolated from the political centres,I really don`t know.But my experience has always been positive,and I have never heard any complaints.So I don`t know if this is just me or if others have the same experience.