[sasquatch2]

Very clever....E85 is a scam supported fanatically by that faction.
The Godwin thing does not apply....This GW/KYOTO thing has permeated everything which was it's intent.

[Diogenes]

"This thread will have a Sasquach factor of '4'"
Which is akin to the Richter magnitude scale

[C.M. Burns]

Dr Caleb Dr Caleb:

Godwin's law of mimetic discussion states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

I think we should institute a 'Sasquach2' law, that defines the number of posts before the discussion is derailed toward Gore/Suzuki/Global Warming. "This thread will have a Sasquach factor of '4'"

Does it increase as the square of the stupidity?

[C.M. Burns]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Very clever....E85 is a scam supported fanatically by that faction.
The Godwin thing does not apply....This GW/KYOTO thing has permeated everything which was it's intent.

16 on the Godwin scale

[N_Fiddledog]

Does it matter at all that he might have a point?

The switch over to biofuels does seem to be playing a part in this. Does putting our hands over our ears and chanting socialism good, banks bad really give us a clearer picture of the totality of the problem.

$1:

Next year, the use of US corn for ethanol is forecast to rise to 114 million tonnes - nearly a third of the whole projected US crop. American cars now burn enough corn to cover all the import needs of the 82 nations classed by the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) as "low-income food-deficit countries". There could scarcely be a better way to starve the poor.

The threat posed by biofuels affects all of us. Global grain stockpiles - on which all of humanity depends - are now perilously depleted. Cereal stocks are at their lowest level for 25 years, according to the FAO. The world has consumed more grain than it has produced for seven of the past eight years, and supplies, at roughly only 54 days of consumption, are the lowest on record.

The president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, has already warned that 100 million people could be pushed deeper into poverty because of food price rises caused directly by this imbalance between supply and demand. Even consumers in rich countries are suffering. We now pay higher prices for our food in order to subsidise the biofuels industry, thanks to measures such as the renewable fuels directive.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200804170025

[Dr Caleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Does it matter at all that he might have a point?

The switch over to biofuels does seem to be playing a part in this. Does putting our hands over our ears and chanting socialism good, banks bad really give us a clearer picture of the totality of the problem.

$1:

Next year, the use of US corn for ethanol is forecast to rise to 114 million tonnes - nearly a third of the whole projected US crop. American cars now burn enough corn to cover all the import needs of the 82 nations classed by the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) as "low-income food-deficit countries". There could scarcely be a better way to starve the poor.

The threat posed by biofuels affects all of us. Global grain stockpiles - on which all of humanity depends - are now perilously depleted. Cereal stocks are at their lowest level for 25 years, according to the FAO. The world has consumed more grain than it has produced for seven of the past eight years, and supplies, at roughly only 54 days of consumption, are the lowest on record.

The president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, has already warned that 100 million people could be pushed deeper into poverty because of food price rises caused directly by this imbalance between supply and demand. Even consumers in rich countries are suffering. We now pay higher prices for our food in order to subsidise the biofuels industry, thanks to measures such as the renewable fuels directive.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200804170025

He does have a point (as do you), but it's the only point he seems to make, on any thread. Which is my point.

Another point is that the corn used in ethanol is filtered out and used for animal feed - animals it would have fed before being used for ethanol. But the link between oil use and climate change is tenuous at best to the subject 'World Bank is behind food crisis'.

I've often championed 'switchgrass' and cellulose (corn stalks, wood chips) for ethanol, rather than cereals, because of just this sort of shortage. But, why is Rice in short supply?

[sasquatch2]

Dr Caleb

$1:

Another point is that the corn used in ethanol is filtered out and used for animal feed - animals it would have fed before being used for ethanol.

It would seem you have been mislead. The distillers grains---the byproduct of ethanol production has long been used as livestock feed. The fermentation process has converted the carbo-hydrates to alcohol and the result is a high protein, high quality protein feed supplement.
This represents a small fraction of the whole. In short, most of the feed value was converted in the fermentation process to alcohol.
This is why referring to the byproduct as not affecting the grain supply is misleading. But then most of environmental BS is misleading.
Squirm if you will but do your homework first.

[sasquatch2]

Much of the worlds food shortages are the result of various causes other than diversion to bio-fuels.

Indian cereal acreage has largely been converted to more profitable sugar cane---a ready feed-stock for biofuel......

Zimbabwe is no longer an important exporter of food but is largely feed by a UN agency due to the political/economic success of Mugabbe's regime. This is not an isolated example but is the norm for "progressive" regimes.

African agriculture is largely if not totally denyed access to the EU market by EU decree. Nothing encourages production like access to markets.

[N_Fiddledog]

Another one you hear about is the rising price of fuel. Apparently this affects food prices.

When you're talking about rising food prices in developed countries there's a new one - carbon taxes.

I just now heard a BC agriculture guy on the radio lamenting how the new carbon tax is going to hurt BC agriculture. In particular stuff like hog farming, and greenhouse growers. He says that price will be passed on to consumers. He wasn't saying anything about banks though, although I'm sure they're in there somewhere.

Here's one that's never factored in, but I can't help wondering if it matters. As I look around the west coast I can't help noticing all this beautiful black dirt being plowed under to build new housing developments.

[C.M. Burns]

I'm sure that Ed will have plenty to say about the Canadian situation.

Globally, in recent days food price increases (rice, for example) are largely the result of speculators. The price of food is increased, with no benefit to anyone except the speculator and massive damage being suffered by the poor.

Longer term, the increased use of corn as a bio-fuel has dramatically increased the 'market' price. Ask the indigenous farmers of Mexico what has happened.

But that's not the complete story.

For many of the developing nations of the world the sequence of events has gone like this:
- they're desperately poor and need money to develop their economies.
- the only place they can get credit is the IMF or the World Bank
- these banks demand that trade barriers protecting the local farmers be dropped.
- When the governments agree - and they have no choice - big Agrobusinesses rushes in and dumps their taxpayer-subsidized, cheaper produce into the local markets.
- local farmers can't compete and they go out of business.
- thus these nations lose all hope of becoming self-sufficient and thereby become hostages to globalized ownership, production and distribution of food.
- Now that the price of food is higher the local farmer still can't go back into business because he or she lost everything trying to forestall the foreign invasion.

There are other factors, i.e. net exporting countries have placed export limits on local production in order to keep prices down for their citizens but driving up prices globally.

Oh yeah... the World Bank, IMF, OECD et al. get paid their interest.
These bankers don't eat margarine and dirt patties as they do in Haiti. They don't go hungry. Their children don't starve.

[C.M. Burns]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Dr Caleb

$1:

Another point is that the corn used in ethanol is filtered out and used for animal feed - animals it would have fed before being used for ethanol.

It would seem you have been mislead. The distillers grains---the byproduct of ethanol production has long been used as livestock feed. The fermentation process has converted the carbo-hydrates to alcohol and the result is a high protein, high quality protein feed supplement.
This represents a small fraction of the whole. In short, most of the feed value was converted in the fermentation process to alcohol.
This is why referring to the byproduct as not affecting the grain supply is misleading. But then most of environmental BS is misleading.
Squirm if you will but do your homework first.

Sas, it's nice to see you posting something literate for a change. You're absolutely right about the enviro lies being told about ethanol. It's not greener by a long shot.

[C.M. Burns]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Indian cereal acreage has largely been converted to more profitable sugar cane---a ready feed-stock for biofuel......

Sas, can you provide me with sources for this, please?

[Dr Caleb]

^^ Ditto on Monty's comment. I knew I could get you to jump tracks, I just had to figure out how.

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Much of the worlds food shortages are the result of various causes other than diversion to bio-fuels.

Indian cereal acreage has largely been converted to more profitable sugar cane---a ready feed-stock for biofuel......

Zimbabwe is no longer an important exporter of food but is largely feed by a UN agency due to the political/economic success of Mugabbe's regime. This is not an isolated example but is the norm for "progressive" regimes.

African agriculture is largely if not totally denyed access to the EU market by EU decree. Nothing encourages production like access to markets.

I read a recent study somewhere (can't remember where, but i will) that per hectare, corn is far less efficient at producing energy than solar or wind. Conversely, wind turbines don't produce a lot of food. But something like 20,000 5KW turbines could produce all North American energy needs - including vehicles, and food crops can still be grown on the land.

Brazil also imports no oil, and runs on 85% ethanol - but they developed their infrastructure from the ground up to be that way - from planing sugar cane (not using human food) all the way to the pump.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/346536

Yea, don't get me started on Zimbabwe - take all the farms away from the farmers, and give them to people who know nothing about how to farm. Wonder why there is no food. 3) Profit!

[sasquatch2]

Dr Caleb

$1:

I read a recent study somewhere (can't remember where, but i will) that per hectare, corn is far less efficient at producing energy than solar or wind. Conversely, wind turbines don't produce a lot of food. But something like 20,000 5KW turbines could produce all North American energy needs - including vehicles, and food crops can still be grown on the land.

Yeah the environuts wet dream. Dream on! A projected wind farm in N. Dakota, touted as predictably the largest in the world, according to N. Dakota utilities would not require any expansion of the utilities grid.
Wind is much pricier per KW than nuclear---requires 3X the materials and then produces ZIP in the way of power.
The approx 100 on the N shore of Lake Erie here involved NO extra distribution infrastructure----WOW.

[Toro]

Dr Caleb Dr Caleb:

Brazil also imports no oil, and runs on 85% ethanol - but they developed their infrastructure from the ground up to be that way - from planing sugar cane (not using human food) all the way to the pump.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/346536

85% of the cars in Brazil are flex vehicles, meaning they can run on both ethanol and gas. They don't run on ethanol alone. Ethanol has about 80% of the efficiency of gas, so there is a spread between the two that consumers exploit. When its cheaper to buy gas, consumers do so, and vice versa.

Half of Brazilian sugar cane production goes to sugar and half to ethanol, so sugar is a human food.

Brazil imports nearly 400,000 barrels of oil a day. However, PetroBras has discovered a very large field offshore that may make Brazil a significant oil exporter.

http://www.indexmundi.com/brazil/oil_imports.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

Brazil also imports gas from Bolivia.

As for wind, energy developer and oil trader T Boone Pickens has big investments in wind farms. If you have ever been to the Coachella Valley in California, you can see the scale of the wind farms.